The Sports Factor

The AFL is on the march, marking out new territory smack bang in the middle of rugby league's suburban heartland in western Sydney and the Gold Coast. Just good marketing or has the AFL sensed that rugby league has taken its eye off the development ball?

Transcript

This transcript was typed from a recording of the program. The ABC cannot guarantee its complete accuracy because of the possibility of mishearing and occasional difficulty in identifying speakers.

Mick O'Regan: Hello, and welcome to The Sports Factor on ABC Radio National. I'm Mick O'Regan.

This week I'd like to take you on a short personal journey through my own less-than-glorious sporting history.

In the '60s I was a mad St Kilda fan, I used to get around in one of those scratchy, sleeveless woollen jerseys; I remember having Barry Breen's No.27 on my back, and pictures of Big Carl Ditterich and Cowboy Neale in my bedroom.

But then in the early '70s my family moved to Brisbane. Now Aussie Rules was present in Brisbane then, but barely visible, sort of a game for expats and eccentrics I suppose. And suddenly rugby, both codes, loomed on the sporting horizon.

Now nobody won the flag, umpires became referees, and a mark was called for, not taken. I basically had to learn a new language.

But so much for ancient histories, because these days, you can follow a local Aussie Rules team from just about anywhere, because expansion is now the name of the game.

Andrew Demetriou: If we really want to be a national code and have a national footprint for our game in this country, we need to be in south-east Queensland and Western Sydney. And that's not an attack on anyone, that's just the AFL looking at what we're charged to do, and let's grow our game.

Mick O'Regan: The boss of the AFL, Andrew Demetriou making clear his responsibilities to The 7:30 Report early this week.

Of course where the game is growing is the point. Western Sydney and the Gold Coast aren't traditional Australian Football areas. Rugby League is the game that generations in those locales have followed passionately. And as Alan Whiticker, the author of the recently-published '100 Years of Rugby League' acknowledges, it's always been about connection to community.

Alan Whiticker: I think the main selling point when Rugby League started in 1908 in Sydney, and in Brisbane simultaneously, was that it was very much a community-based game. There was the promise that a third of all gate money was going to go to the club, and I think that was very, very important, then the club could recompensate players for lost time from work through injury. But the important thing is it allowed clubs to get a financial foothold in their local community.

And in researching our book, '100 Years of Rugby League', it's amazing how in the early years there were so many press reports of dances and smokos and picnics, and country tours, by established Sydney clubs, and of course a very important part of the foundation of Rugby League are trips to Brisbane and greater trips throughout Queensland. So they brought the community along with them. Here were local heroes getting a foothold in a game where the people owned the game, and I think that was very much an important selling point in the establishment of Rugby League 100 years ago.

Mick O'Regan: And establishing connection to community is what the AFL is doing so well all over the country, including in northern New South Wales, a Rugby League heartland if ever there was one.

Man: Righty-ho, thanks to the boys for keeping us entertained, thank you to everybody for coming along today. At 7.30 we do have an official coaches' forum, opened up to anybody, you can come along, you don't even have to be involved in AFL to come and listen to the crew that's going to be here today, headed up by Knightsy and a few assistant coaches and some players. And saying that, we'd like everyone to hang around and listen to that one as well, but now we're fortunate enough to be able to have access to some players.

You will get the opportunity now to ask some questions, but following that we'll do some autographs, and we want to make sure that we don't have 300 kids all jumping on top of each other, stampeding and doing it the wrong way. So we'll do it in a nice orderly fashion, everybody will get an opportunity to grab their autograph, so don't think you're going to miss o7ut, you will get the chance to do it.

Mick O'Regan: And do it, they did. A bulging room, full of wide-eyed kids and dozens of languid teens, shuffled along past the Essendon players, proffering miniature footballs, club caps, and jerseys to be signed.

The Bombers star full-forward, Matthew Lloyd, and rangy fullback, Dustin Flectcher become human magnets.

Mick O'Regan: Matthew Lloyd, things like this, signing footballs for young fans, how important is that for you as an established AFL star to be seen to be doing this sort of stuff?

Matthew Lloyd: I don't think we look to be seen, but honestly, we all grew up doing the same thing, and we're just fortunate enough that we're in this situation now, and all of us realise that in ten years' time there'll be someone else sitting here, and we'll be taking our children to do the same thing. So I think you know what reaction you got from some of your heroes growing up, and some was good, and some was bad, so yes.

Mick O'Regan: Do you remember doing this yourself?

Matthew Lloyd: Yes, no doubt. I was a mad Fitzroy supporter, Bernie Quinlan was a hero in the footy, Mark Waugh was a hero in the cricket, I was fortunate enough to meet them both and both gave me a great impression, so I loved them from that time on.

Mick O'Regan: But the message here, we just heard one of your team-mates basically saying 'Look, there are all sorts of little sacrifices you make, but the big pay-off can be playing for the AFL. That's a strong message, coming from Essendon, isn't it?

Matthew Lloyd: Oh yes. Like I think for the 40 guys here that are on our AFL list, there's probably 400 who could have been, but they weren't because they didn't want to make the sacrifice and do the things to make it. In any organisation you need to work hard and do the right things, and we're no different, so yes, I think the guys now you're really trained up to know and be respectful of people, and that's why we're sort of a fantastic footy club.

Mick O'Regan: Now I'll let you go, because as I talk to you, I seem to be taking you out of loop. Many thanks for talking with me.

Matthew Lloyd: No worries, thanks.

Dustin Flectcher: The boys are happy to see so many people here, and footy developing in a town that's only more Rugby background, so it's fantastic.

Mick O'Regan: Do you notice, as you come into these places that AFL is on the rise?

Dustin Flectcher: I definitely notice that people, yes, like, you know you might walk down the street and there'll be quite a few that sort of come up and speak to you about football, and I suppose that in itself is showing you that football is on the rise, and people are speaking about it, and are trying to play the game. And yes, that's what gets us excited to see all these maybe Rugby-type players knowing about football and about AFL. I'm not sure how many of the AFL or Essendon expect to come to a signing session like this, but I'm sure they'd be pretty surprised and very happy with who's turned out.

Mick O'Regan: Essendon footballer, Dustin Flectcher. And before him, team-mate Matthew Lloyd, at an AFL community camp, held at Ballina, in Northern New South Wales.

Of course not all the youngsters simply wanted a signature. Some of the teams were there to find out what it takes to make the grade, to play in the AFL. And getting up close and personal to a star is a good way to start.

Boy: They're all pretty good players, so I'm pretty stoked.

Mick O'Regan: So for you, now you're what? About 195, 196?

Boy: Yes, 198.

Mick O'Regan: 198. Do you have ambitions to play in the AFL?

Boy: I don't really have the skill, but Matt Lodge, he's pretty good, so -

Boy: And Nick Ellis.

Boy: Yes, he's playing at a pretty high level, but yes.

Mick O'Regan: What do you ask these players when you meet them? What do you want to know from them?

Boy: How you get there.

Mick O'Regan: How you get there, what's the journey to the top?

Boy: And what do you say to yourself when you're trying to get there.

Mick O'Regan: How do you mean?

Boy: Like if you're 16, 17, 18, what sacrifices are you going to make it to the big time.

Mick O'Regan: Now Andrew Welsh was talking about you have to make sacrifices, and he talked about not going to parties, staying in when he had to play the next day; does that strike a chord with you?

Boy: Oh yes, well me and Matt are sort of a bit young to be going to parties, but sort of in the future, would play a very significant role.

Mick O'Regan: So what would you be prepared to give up in order to make it as an AFL player?

Boy: Yes, definitely partying and fatty food.

Mick O'Regan: And all the sort of bad press that you occasionally get, the whole Ben Cousins stuff, the allegations that people are using drugs or drinking, or staying up too late, what does that mean to you? Do you listen and think about those things?

Boy: Yes, I just kind of take him as a bit of a joke, like I used to aspire to him, but now it's kind of a bit of a lost memory.

Mick O'Regan: Really? You just give up on those sort of people?

Boy: Yes.

Mick O'Regan: What about you?

Boy: The same. Druggos and no, I just gave up on them.

Mick O'Regan: So do you play Aussie Rules?

Boy: Yes, I do.

Mick O'Regan: Do the other kids ever say to you Why do you play that game?

Boy: Yes, they do. They always call it Gay FL, yes, and it just gets really annoying sometimes, and you just laugh at them and they're probably going to go to parties and do stupid things. I think I'm just going to go all the way with AFL.

Mick O'Regan: Right. But it's a sort of minority playing AFL, but most of your mates are playing Rugby League or Rugby Union?

Boy: Yes, you've got to stick by it pretty much, and then you know you're going to be the one that turns out on top.

Boy: Well I'm an expat from Melbourne, so I've grown up with AFL all my life. Soccer, Rugby League, Rugby Union, big dominant sports around here, the competition, the league up here is not very well funded - probably has a bit more support behind it, its generally driving interest, to a game, people who find that they're not cut out for Rugby League, come and play Australian Rules, fit, quick game, good for everyone.

Mick O'Regan: Right, thank you very much fellas, really appreciate it. Good luck with the AFL.

A thousand kilometres south in the sprawling suburbs of Western Sydney, the connection between club and community is even more topical.

The municipality of Blacktown is one of the largest in the country, and as Mayor Leo Kelly is more than happy to tell you, 1 in 70 Australians resides within his civic boundaries.

For Mr Kelly, bringing an AFL team to his patch means increased sporting resources and a positive public profile for the area. And it didn't happy by magic.

Leo Kelly: Well it means the result of efforts by the Council and myself in negotiations with the AFL over several years now, and the realisation that there will be a stadium built, that it will bring great exposure for Blacktown and to the local economy, and produce champions of the future, in not only AFL, but cricket.

Mick O'Regan: What did you ask the AFL for?

Leo Kelly: Well it's what the AFL asked us for. We had the Kickstart programs operating out in Blacktown, and also they came to the party in regard to when we got the AFL stadium money, or the money for a stadium, the AFL came forward and offered to support it not only with dollars, but also support to build it into a major sporting complex adjacent to our existing Olympic site.

Mick O'Regan: Were there commercial interests in your municipality, putting pressure on you to strike this deal?

Leo Kelly: No, there wasn't. It came out of an influx of money from the then Planning Minister, Craig Knowles in compensation for taking away a lot of our green space land, not what we anticipated, but that $20-million, together with our desire to join with the AFL and cricket, that brought not only them to the table, but also other sporting interests. There were no commercial operatives at all.

Mick O'Regan: Does the AFL have to be reassured that your municipality does have deep enough pockets, if you like, the commercial depth to support a club in the area, or is that not a factor?

Leo Kelly: The AFL are very shrewd operators and promoters, and they know a good deal when they see it. We have a population of 300,000 individuals, increasing by 5,000 a year; a huge disposable income that can be seen from the census figures. And not only that, we're the centre in Western Sydney of a population approaching 2-million to 3-million, because from Campbelltown right across to the Hills, from Parramatta over the Blue Mountains as far away as Lithgow, you get people going to Swans games at Homebush. And they're happy to go to Blacktown if we can produce the teams here. The AFL knows this, cricket knows it, you will see Pura Cup matches in Blacktown also for cricket followers. But the AFL know a good thing when they see it, and I've got no doubt that they've done all their arithmetic and sums and have come up with what we already know that this is a deal too good to let go by.

Mick O'Regan: Now the Blacktown municipality, as you've indicated, has a sort of sport branding. It's an area where there is a lot of community interest in sporty, and they're increasingly are sporting facilities. In your opinion, why wasn't the National Rugby League hammering on your door? Is it because they already have a number of clubs, such as Parramatta or Canterbury, or even West Tigers or Penrith in that general area?

Leo Kelly: I think that the League have missed the boat. They've been too busy, we go back to the two competitions running independent of each other, the squabbles of the past, and these seem to be still continuing. We did have approaches from them about an Academy, and we made certain offers to them, and as soon as we asked them for money, they retreated. And where did they go? Back to Narrabeen on the Northern Peninsula, which has produced very few players. I could count them on one hand. The League have missed the boat. 70% or over of their top players come from the Western Suburbs of Sydney, or country Western New South Wales. They've missed the boat.

Mick O'Regan: Did you approach David Gallop to say 'Look, the AFL's very interested, are you interested as well?

Leo Kelly: No, we indicated that through three or four people that come from the NRL, that we right top players in their day, plus their finance manager. We made certain offers to them about an academy to bring them into the agenda in Blacktown, and they've walked away.

Mick O'Regan: So as far as you're concerned, they basically didn't see the potential that your municipality has to offer?

Leo Kelly: Absolutely. Missed it completely.

Mick O'Regan: What do you say to the really diehard fans of Rugby League in the area, who might have their noses out of joint that Blacktown won't have its own NRL team.

Leo Kelly: Well we're in between already two existing major NRL teams, namely Parramatta and the Penrith. And the boundary of that goes right through the middle of Blacktown, so we have supporters of all themes. We have supporters of the major teams, we've got a lot of South Sydney supporters, funnily enough, that came there in the early days of settlement and still remain diehard Rabbits supporters. There's room for everybody. The population we've got has got the potential to produce great players in every code, even soccer, and other sports. So it can't be missed by any of them that want to put their money up like the AFL and cricket have.

Mick O'Regan: Do you think that the issue here is basically exposing young people through programs like Kickstart and Auskick, that there might be older people who are wedded to the notion of Rugby League, but it's the next generation that's coming through. They're the ones that are going to be the diehard AFL supporters and the ones who will really go on to represent Western Sydney in Australian Football?

Leo Kelly: Absolutely, and the AFL have recognised the very large indigenous population you've got, have actually set up an indigenous academy, running through the High Schools, to tap in to that level of talent. A lot of the top players that you see in the AFL are Aboriginal people, who have made it; they've come from as far away as Tasmania, the Northern Territory, other areas of Australia. We have a great cradle of future champions in Blacktown, right through the indigenous and other sectors of the community, and you will see great champions of the future come out of the AFL code in Blacktown.

Mick O'Regan: What do you think a Blacktown-based AFL team should be called, Mr Kelly?

Leo Kelly: Well there's been several things, you know, we had old Rugby League coaches used to talk about the Fibros against the Silvertails at one time. But I'm sure they'll come up with a name that will do credit to the area and that people will wear like a badge of honour.

Mick O'Regan: Leo Kelly, the Mayor of Blacktown in Western Sydney.

So what do the analysts make of the AFL's declaration of intent regarding Western Sydney and the Gold Coast?

Gerard Whateley describes and explains Aussie Rules for thousands of people on ABC Radio, so I figure he should know.

Gerard Whateley: I think it's to bring to fruition the actual national competition, which is basically an expansion of the old Victorian Football League, and thus we have 10 teams based in Victoria and 6 outside. I think most fair-minded people and certainly the Administration, have a desire that it be a more national competition than that. There are two teams in the heartlands of Western Australia and South Australia currently one in Queensland and New South Wales. I'm sure the expansion into Western Sydney is a nod to Sydney as I guess the notion of centre of Australia.

It's the stranglehold for the NRL, for Rugby Union it's always been a centre, for the A-League there are three teams out of New South Wales, I think the AFL will never believe it has a national comp until there are two teams in Sydney. And the other, I think the Gold Coast is much more natural, with the expat Victorians there, there is a base of AFL knowledge and support, we know that from the likes of Southport. I think that's absolutely logical, and given the massive expansion that's been taking place there, and the desire of all national sporting codes to be there, it just wouldn't make sense to ignore the Gold Coast any longer.

Mick O'Regan: Right. But the one place they have ignored, and I was going to come to this later, but I'll bring it forward: Tasmania. Now Taswegians will know that they have been providing fans and players into the VFL and the South Australian National Football League, and even the WAFL I suppose, for generations. Why is it not seen as a possible location, either Launceston or Hobart, for an AFL team?

Gerard Whateley: It's a much more natural fit, that's for certain, given the cultural background of AFL there. It's just not seen as desirable. It's not seen as desirable probably on a number of fronts: Probably population and demographics, and definitely finances. Now that's not for me to sit in judgement one way or the other, because I suspect a team in Tasmania would have the natural following of the entire State and would be well-supported, and I imagine that there is the money in Tasmania to support a team, but that's just simply on the AFL's agenda. What they've given Launceston is a package of games that involve Hawthorne, and that infuriates the purists who believe that Tasmania is worthy of a team.

But certainly the crowds have definitely embraced Hawthorne, so maybe that fills the desire that's there for the moment. But it's interesting, and you can also make a case in the Northern Territory, given the popularity of AFL there and the growing numbers that area spreading into the competition from that State, but they're simply not on the radar, and I would have to say it just doesn't make financial sense. That's the only reason I could come up with.

Mick O'Regan: That really in this issue, you have to follow where the population is growing and where the money is deep?

Gerard Whateley: No question. And the two are the Gold Coast and Western Sydney that fill the fastest-growing parts of Australia. And the AFL's done its groundwork certainly in the Gold Coast and it's begun to in Western Sydney, by bringing in Auskick, the junior form of the game into schools, and they've stolen a march in some council areas on traditional NRL markets. But the Gold Coast is fascinating, because the NRL has made it work. And I know they've made it work at the third incarnation. A-League is going there with the Galaxy as well. It's a market that's probably been primed for national sporting codes for some time, and the AFL's been slow to move, and it's probably been deliberately slow to move. It's had a 16-team competition which has been bedded down and standing still for some time, and that was by choice. Now the decision has been made to expand and I think the Gold Coast makes all the sense in the world; in every parameter you could come up with, it makes sense that an AFL team goes to the Gold Coast.

Mick O'Regan: Now any number of AFL officials will tell you that the idea in establishing a team in Western Sydney is not to sort of cut into National Rugby League heartland, but when we spoke to Leo Kelly, the Mayor of Blacktown, he made no bones about it, he said that the NRL, the Rugby League, had missed the boat. Do you think in targeting Western Sydney there is even a subtle sense that the AFL is sending a message to Rugby League that 'We're going national, but you're not doing it successfully?'

Gerard Whateley: In a subtle sense, yes. The NRL has no claims to being a national competition, they tried Perth and they closed down, they're not even close to Adelaide. They have outposts in Melbourne, but it's an Eastern Seaboard competition, so I think the AFL has this desire to establish themselves as the one true national football code. Now they probably don't have the claim to that any more because of the success of the establishment of A-League, so it's clearly not on the same tier yet as the AFL and the NRL. And I believe that they do sense there's a weakness in the way that perhaps the NRL has farmed its traditional market and particularly in West Sydney, they're going to try to grab a stranglehold.

The AFL has a big enough war chest at the moment to set something up and support it for as long as it takes to grab hold. That is presuming that the cultural undertones are there, that an AFL team will be supported by those. I haven't seen enough evidence to convince me of that yet, the AFL hasn't been obliged to present that evidence yet. I suspect they're still gathering it and they may not know the answers themselves at this moment. But I like the fact that they've expressed this desire, they said they want to do it, they want to do it in the short term. So it's time to find out, and I think that will actually help them find out in Western Sydney whether the society, whether the culture is ready for an AFL team or not.

Mick O'Regan: And of course it's that growing from the base. We heard at the top of the program Essendon players in northern New South Wales, in what is very much Rugby League country, doing a community camp, where prominent players like Matthew Lloyd and Dustin Fletcher spoke to young people from northern New South Wales. And I was there; I could see that what they were basically saying to these young fellows (and they were mainly young boys) is 'Don't give up on the skills you develop in other types of football, but try to bring those skills to Australian Football.' There's a real sense that they're not trying to reach people in their 40s, they're trying to reach 14-year-olds.

Gerard Whateley: And the 14-year-olds take their parents. I think that's the one thing that we know, you've got to win the hearts and minds of kids, so that they no longer see you as a rival code, they no longer see you as a poisonous enemy. You're something that they enjoy, you're something that they want to go and experience. And I think we've seen this a lot with A-League, certainly in my experience in Melbourne. It's kids who play AFL who really like the feel of soccer, they play a little bit of it at school, they want to go and see it, particularly because it falls during the off-season, they take their parents along, their parents discover that probably the game that they've had a set against for a long time, is not too bad after all.

So I think that is the real battle, and you've got to get kids who want to play AFL, who are good enough to get into the system, and then hopefully with the concessions that will come, you're able to put some of the Western Sydney players into a Western Sydney team. So it's not just the communities in name, it's the communities in actual establishment as well. And the Brisbane Lions have had some success in that; they've got more than a dozen players who are from Queensland on their list, and I just think in the establishment phase, it's critical. And I think we're still talking five or six years down the track, so that's a lot of time for 14-year-olds now to be ready to play at the elite level, I think that's critical to everything that's trying to be achieved.

Mick O'Regan: How serious, Gerard, are the complaints coming from the established Melbourne clubs about the concessions that are given to the expansion clubs?

Gerard Whateley: Oh, they're serious, hugely so. One of the things that will happen, and we don't know the formula, and the AFL hasn't settled on a formula, is that there will be players with current clubs who will be recruited to any expansion club that comes into the competition. How many, and of what quality, really becomes the issue there. So that's on one front. And the other is the money. How much of the money that would typically go to the 16 established clubs will be funnelled away to set up two new clubs and then to keep them going through what will be difficult times in the initial years where they will surely make substantial losses.

The flipside to that is how much more money comes into the system because you've got two more teams, and two very desirable markets. And that's the balancing point at the moment, which nobody knows, but the ructions from the established clubs are significant and growing. But that's why we have an independent commission that runs the competition.

Mick O'Regan: Just a final question: on the money, obviously broadcast rights, they're not so much a stream as a river of money that comes into sporting organisations. Overseas you're probably aware, that major football clubs such as Manchester United, had integrated vertically by developing their own television networks, they basically film their own product and sell those images on. Do you see that coming in the AFL, that there will be eventually a discreet AFL channel, owned by the AFL?

Gerard Whateley: I'm not sure. The AFL had this, and they let it go, or it was taken away. They had the Fox footy channel on Pay-TV for the first five years and in the new contract that was shut down, and the sport's gone to Fox Sports. Look, a club like Collingwood, I'm sure would feel that there was a market for them to do that, and they have the financial largesse to take it on. I think the AFL wants to control all of its broadcast rights, I think it's right to do that, to maximise what it can get, and then to operate. We have a communist system, where all the money's gathered, and then distributed 16, 18 ways, however many ways it needs to go.

I'm supportive of that because there are advantages to being a rich and powerful club, and if you take the example that you're using of English Premier League, there are 10 teams at the start of every competition who know they have absolutely no chance, and the AFL prides itself on an even competition, where at the start of the year, the supporters of all 16 clubs believe they have a shot at making the finals, and many of them a chance at the flag. So I think it runs completely counter to everything that we've tried. We're more the American model than we are the English model. But I think the AFL would like to retain control of all of its broadcast areas to get the money centrally and then distribute it from there.

Mick O'Regan: Just a final question: what would a Western Sydney AFL team be called, do you think?

Gerard Whateley: I haven't thought about that, to be honest. I don't know Western Sydney well enough. You would want to choose something that was absolutely identifiable in the local market. The most recent team we've had come in was Fremantle, and they became the Dockers, and everybody understands the link of the moniker of the dockers to the geographical area of Fremantle. It has to be something like that, but greater minds than mine could put their efforts into that.

Mick O'Regan: Or maybe someone familiar with Parramatta Road could call it the Western Sydney Traffic.

Gerard Whateley, thank you very much for being on The Sports Factor.

Gerard Whateley: No worries, Mick.

Mick O'Regan: Gerard Whateley, from ABC Local Radio bringing us to the final siren.

As always, thanks to the team: Producer, Andrew Davies; Technical Producer Peter McMurray; and to Sabrina Lipovic in ABC Radio Archives.

Guests

Gerard Whateley
ABC AFL commentator.

Alan Whiticker
Rugby League author.

Matthew Lloyd
Essendon AFL player.

Dustin Fletcher
Essendon AFL player.

Leo Kelly
Mayor of Blacktown.

Presenter

Mick O'Regan

Producer

Andrew Davies