Spirit of Things

Champion weight-lifter and Olympic hopeful, Deborah Lovely, has always trained hard but her life also includes prayer and a commitment to Christian values. Also playing for God are Cronulla Sharks rugby league player, David Simmons, and former player and now Sharks chaplain, Paul Stevens.

Transcript

This transcript was typed from a recording of the program. The ABC cannot guarantee its complete accuracy because of the possibility of mishearing and occasional difficulty in identifying speakers.

Rachael Kohn: Mean, tough and ambitious, Frank Machin had what it takes to get on the rugby league team, in the classic 1963 film, 'This Sporting Life'. But his personal relationships were in a mess. What if he'd been a Christian?

Hello, I'm Rachael Kohn and on The Spirit of Things this week, the sporting life and faith, of real athletes.

You're tuned to ABC Radio National.

Today, the Olympic hopeful and Commonwealth Games Gold Medallist, Deborah Lovely, talks about being a Christian, and a weightlifter, an amazing combination I think, because it's not as easy as it sounds, I mean being a Christian, of course!

And later we'll hear from a couple of rugby league footballers who play hard and pray hard. They're David Simmons who plays for the Cronulla Sharks in Sydney and Paul Stevens, Chaplain for the Sharks. They'll join me a bit later.

SONG: 'Carry that weight'

Rachael Kohn: Did you know that there are bibles for almost every profession? The sporting bibles put out by the Bible Society keeps being reissued featuring new champions in its introductory pages. This time, the sporting celebrities are Australian, and one of them is Deborah Lovely. She's got brawn as well as beauty. At the Commonwealth Games she won 3 Silver Medals and one Gold Medal when she was Captain of the Australian Women's Weightlifting team.

Commentator: Deborah Lovely couldn't quite believe she'd won Gold in the 75 kilogram weightlifting final. Buoyed by a parochial home crowd, she survived a tight battle sealing victory in the clean and jerk.

Man: Fantastic, Lovely, Lovely, Lovely stuff!

Rachael Kohn: Deborah Lovely lives in Brisbane and when I spoke to her, she was looking forward to competing in Beijing.

Deborah Lovely, welcome to The Spirit of Things.

Deborah Lovely: Thanks very much for having me.

Rachael Kohn: Well Deborah, you're featured in the new sporting version of the New Testament called 'The Prize'; that's quite an honour, congratulations.

Deborah Lovely: Yes, thank you. Actually I remember when my Dad used to buy me some of those sporting bibles when I was younger, and they always had American athletes, so it's pretty amazing for me to waken up with a new prize and see myself in there actually, and I think it's really great to have so many Australian, well they're all Australian athletes, so yes, really nice.

Rachael Kohn: So you've had sporting bibles in the past?

Deborah Lovely: Yes. I'm not sure if they were called the prize though, it would have been a good ten years ago actually, maybe more, they had athletes such as David Robertson from the MBA, and other athletes like that, so yes, it's very different to have athletes from Australia I guess for Australian kids to look at.

Rachael Kohn: Well indeed. So it's not an unusual combination for you to have Christianity and sport put together, because I think a lot of people think Christianity focuses on the heart and mind, and sport focuses on the body and never the twain shall meet.

Deborah Lovely: Yes, I guess when you really put elite competition and the high level competition, when you really scrutinise that, you realise that it is a lot of mental and psychological effort, as well as just physical. You know, weightlifting, especially in my sport, it's not just about getting onto the platform and lifting big weights, you have to mentally prepare, and you have to be totally I suppose right within yourself is sort of one way of putting it I suppose. You know, if you go onto the platform and you're not totally confident, and that's why it's so hard when things in your personal life go wrong, because it can affect your psychological build-up for a competition. So yes, they do certainly meet, and I know that when everything's going well in my spiritual world, like I'm regularly at church and I'm really doing my bible readings and that sort of thing, I know that I do feel a lot better when I compete.

Rachael Kohn: Well you're a champion weightlifter now, but you did other sports before, didn't you?

Deborah Lovely: Yes, that's right. Yes, I was involved in Little Athletics is where I started my career, and I improved to become the third-best discus thrower in the world when I was 15 in the under-18 championships. And continued on to do a few world representations in athletics in hammer and discus. I also moved on to doing track cycling after the Olympic Games in 2004, and ended up winning a few State track cycling titles and also went on to compete at the national championships in track cycling and yes, had a little bit of rugby union since last year up until the time I shattered my ankle and had six screws and a plate put into my ankle last year. But yes, I was still left in the Queensland team and played for Queensland and then was selected in the Australian shadow squad for the Wallaroos.

Rachael Kohn: So do you just keep finding new challenges? Is that what turned you to weightlifting? Because gosh, weightlifting sounds like it's got to be the hardest of them all.

Deborah Lovely: Yes, I believe it's the most intense sport that I've done. Basically I actually started weightlifting just to help my throwing, so to be a really good athlete in today's world, you really have to be quite strong, no matter what sport it is. And if you look around at any other sport at the Olympic Games, they all will do some sort of weight-training. So I actually started weight-training just to throw further in discus and hammer. And that's how I really started in the weightlifting. And I was still at school and by the time I was training three, four times a week in the weightlifting, I actually was selected in my first Australian team. So I didn't intend weightlifting to be my sport, but it just happened. And the biggest thing is that you have to love the training in the sport that you do, because you do so much of it. And I love the training that I do in weightlifting between 10 and 20 tons that I lift every day. It sounds like a lot but I do really love it and I love the feeling of giving my best and trying to drag myself out of the gym when I can barely walk, it's a great feeling.

Rachael Kohn: Oh gosh! Well there can't be many Christians in weightlifting.

Deborah Lovely: I know of a couple. There's a couple overseas that have emailed me and sent me a few encouragement emails and that sort of thing, and I know a couple in Australia, but yes, it's hard when you're at the elite level, I don't always spend a lot of time at competitions and other sports spend months of the year overseas and just constantly competing, and I suppose you'd get to know the other athletes quite well, those in weightlifting. It's an individual sport. I study full-time at Griffith University, I'm doing a law and criminology degree, and I'm also coaching part-time at different private schools around Brisbane. So there's not a lot of time left for me to socialist with the weightlifters, and I'm also getting married in December, so everything's going on at the moment.

Rachael Kohn: Oh my goodness. Well there's a lot to look forward to. But the Christian ideal of a woman tends towards the passive and the feminine. I mean Paul warns against being the head of the household, women should not be the head of the household. So what chance has a weightlifting woman got in Paul's scheme of things?

Deborah Lovely: Well the bible talks about women have to be very - I mean when you're talking about not being the head of the household, that's definitely true, and my fiancée Josh, and myself, have certainly covered that ground, and it's amazing that even though a lot of people know that I am a very strong person, I've got a very strong determination in what I do, when it comes down to it, when I'm with my fiancée, I know that I'm not being strong-willed and against him and that sort of thing, like I know that I'm fitting in with that model that the bible talks about because we discuss things and within myself I can feel that I do respect him a lot, and that I'm not trying to challenge him and I'm certainly not trying to be the head of the household, and that's something that we're going to continue to work on after we get married. But yes, it's a very good question and something that there's probably not a whole lot of other women that are exactly in my position, but I'm sure every single one of the women out there that's a Christian, that's a female, has to deal with that in their own particular job or in their own particular life.

Rachael Kohn: Are you committed to the idea that a woman should be more submissive to the man?

Deborah Lovely: It depends what you mean by submissive. And basically, Josh is a Christian, my fiancée, and I trust him and I've got to know him very well, and within those boundaries then it's not about - I think submission is a word which there's a lot of misconception about what it actually means and it doesn't mean that you're going to get trampled all over. It means that you trust your husband and you trust the man that you've chosen to respect and love and obey, and so within those boundaries that's where you're going to be submissive. You know, if the guy's going to propose, and I suppose it's like dancing, he proposes that step but it's up to you whether you take that step and certainly you're not going to be submissive to somebody that you're not going to respect or that you're not going to trust. So I suppose that's the thing when you choose a person you want to be with, you've got to make sure that you can respect and love and trust that person, that they're not going to abuse that trust.

Rachael Kohn: Well I guess he's got to trust you, that you won't use your very strong arms to make a point.

Deborah Lovely: Yes, absolutely. It's funny actually, because I think I mentioned it before, of how the outside world can really look at me and say, 'Wow, he might be in trouble,' or 'Watch out', because I'm so strong and that sort of thing. But it's amazing that I can actually feel how different I am from the outside, aggressive weightlifting competitor that I am, compared to when I'm with him because I mean he could look at me and just say, 'Deborah, I wouldn't do that', and I feel like crying sometimes, like it's very interesting the way that because I do trust him, and respect him so much that he does have a lot of power yes, in that respect, and I suppose it's just that balance, it's making sure that you're not I suppose you're treating others as you would want to be treated and it's not abusing that trust that you've put in each other, and yes, it's a delicate balance.

Rachael Kohn: Well Deborah, I gather you're active in your Christian community. What sort of things do you do?

Deborah Lovely: OK, well I actually for about six months before I broke my ankle, I was involved in the youth group and was a leader of the youth group down in my home city of Ipswich, and I really enjoyed that. A lot of the younger kids really looked up to me and I felt that because I've grown up in a Christian home, I've had quite a lot of experience as far as - my parents used to read the bible to us when we were babies, so I've had 25 years of bible knowledge and practice and that sort of thing. So the kids really loved it and I really loved being part of their life. I do a lot of community talks for church groups, for schools, for community organisations; I'm just trying to think off the top of my head, there's just so many different things that I've sort of done, and I would like to be a regular for example, involved in the Sunday School every week and that sort of thing, but at this stage in my sporting career and my study and that sort of thing, it's not something that I can commit to at the moment of being a regular part of a particular church and helping the Sunday School every week because if I'm away, I don't want to let people down. But it's more of you know, I get lots of phone calls asking me to come and speak at the schoolies camp for example, Scripture Union schoolies camp, I was a guest speaker there. They had over 300 kids and that's a fantastic alternative to the schoolies on the Gold Coast. So I really love being at the moment, being a guest speaker, that's what God's called me to do at the moment.

Rachael Kohn: That's Deborah Lovely, super heavyweight weight-lifter and Christian, on her way to the Olympics.

And now back to Deborah who reads the bible on a daily basis.

What are the passages, what passages in the bible really speak to you? Do you have some favourites?

Deborah Lovely: Yes, in Matthew, I'm pretty sure it's Matthew 6 where it talks about not laying up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust can corrupt, or where thieves can break in and steal, but where your treasure is, there your heart will be also, if you lay up for yourself treasures in heaven. So that really speaks a lot to me because there's a lot of , I don't know about whether it would be pressure because I don't really tend to think about it a lot. But a lot of athletes want to get out there, they want to earn as much money as they can while they can, and you know, that's a good goal, and everything, but you've got to keep it in perspective because at the end of the day if you're turning down the things in life that really matter because you want to get money, you want to get cars, houses, whatever you want to get, at the end of the day you know, we're all going to die. And the most important thing you've got to think about which I suppose is a little bit you know, negative, but at some stage you've got to think about death and what happens after you die; where do you want to spend eternity, and I guess I can see when people offer me to come and speak somewhere for money, and then I've got to speak somewhere else at a school for nothing, and at the end of the day although it's good to get money, I really love the response that I get with the kids and I love giving them, you know, I do a 96.5 radio station Cool Choices program with the kids, and it talks about good choices and their choices have consequences and getting that sort of a message out, think is really positive for them.

Rachael Kohn: So you're not aiming to have the world's biggest trophy cabinet? That's not why you're in this?

Deborah Lovely: Absolutely not. Because if I did, I'd get very upset about the fact that weightlifting gets not only negative publicity but just not very much publicity at all, and as a Commonwealth Games Gold Medallist, I could be sort of ranting and raving about the fact that I should be on the front of a paper or I should be getting money, and you know, some people say, Oh, you should have a full-time manager, or you should be getting millions of dollars, because you've gone to two Olympics, and that sort of thing, but I'm glad I don't really care about that because at the end of the day, sport is one aspect that God's called me to do in my life, and at the moment I want to really make the most of it and do it as well as I can because the better that I achieve, the more potential that I've got to talk about my sport. I wouldn't be talking to you today if I hadn't achieved anything. So yes, it's a good opportunity.

Rachael Kohn: Well as a sport, weightlifting is pretty lonesome. I mean you don't have a big team out there rooting for you and stepping in when you're stumbling, it's just you alone. Is that a challenge, particularly for a Christian weightlifter?

Deborah Lovely: Yes, I guess it really depends on how you look at it I suppose, because the Commonwealth Games we had a full team of 15 and although we are alone out there on the platform, we do have our team mates there to watch us all the time and we really do encourage each other. But when it comes to the Olympic Games, I'm one of two athletes in Beijing, myself and another super heavyweight guy, Damien Kelly from my club, and I was one of two athletes at the last Olympic Games as well, just one male, one female. So yes, it can get pretty lonely, but at the same time, you know, I've got my family and I've got friends and I've got a lot of other people that I know are out there praying for me and wishing me well and although it's me on my own on the platform, I know that as soon as I get off the platform, I've got people around me that really care about me and support me a lot. So yes, so I suppose you've got to just remember those people when it's the long hours at the gym and you're away a lot, it's good to remember those people that do support me.

Rachael Kohn: So do you travel with a bible?

Deborah Lovely: Yes, I do, yes, certainly.

Rachael Kohn: You're a super heavyweight, so what are the events that you're actually involved in and what are you going to be doing in Beijing? When is it, August 16th?

Deborah Lovely: Yes, my competition's Saturday night, August 16th. Probably 9pm here. Basically the super heavyweight means that I'm in the over 75-kilogram class. At all other major competitions such as two Commonwealth Games and one Olympics, I've been in the under 75 category, but it was my choice and my coach's decision to decide to move up the weight class so that I would secure my spot in the Olympics this time around, and I've really enjoyed that because I've been able to eat more. And basically in our sport you weigh in 2 hours beforehand and you have to weigh in to that category. For example, if I was in the under 75s and I weighed more than that, then I would have to go and lose weight in that hour that we have to weigh in. So I weigh in two hours before competition then we start the competition with the snatch session, which is three lifts and then you have a 10 minute break and then you go on to the clean and jerk, which is sort of snatches where the hands are further out on the bar and the bar goes straight up over your head.

Rachael Kohn: And how much weight is that?

Deborah Lovely: At the moment my best is 112 kilos. So I actually increased the Australian record by 10 kilos, and yes, that was a very good competition. And then the clean and jerk is actually the lift where your hands are a bit closer together and you catch the weight on your shoulders and then you stand up with the weight and then you split your legs into the jerk position and then bring your feet together and the old Australian record was 130 kilos and I recently did last month 140 kilos to increase the record by 10 kilos.

Rachael Kohn: Oh goodness, wow, you're really pushing the barriers aren't you there?

Deborah Lovely: Yes, it's been an amazing build-up.

Rachael Kohn: How long can you do this sport and how long do you want to do it?

Deborah Lovely: Yes, it's a good question. It's probably not a good time to ask me at the moment because I've been training for 10 to 11 months straight, and usually I only train for about six months. Just because of the fact that I tend to either get injured or just get a bit tired. So at the moment I'm really just looking forward to going to the Olympics, competing, and having a break. And looking for ward to the next competition later in the year. I suppose as far as how long you can do it, you're not really in your physical peak until you hit about 26 to 28, and you can actually stay in that physical peak for say five or six years. So I guess it's up to Josh and I to decide when we'd like to hear the pitter patter of little feet. But I really do love the sport and although I really do need a break after the Olympics, I do look forward to the next Commonwealth Games in New Delhi in India, and I guess we'll just wait and see what happens after that.

Rachael Kohn: Deborah, is Lovely your stage name?

Deborah Lovely: Yes, someone's actually asked me that before. Lovely is my actual last name, so when I go out to compete for Australia at the Olympic Games they say your last name first and then the name of your country, so usually when I go out to compete it's Lovely, Australia. So yes, that is my last name.

Rachael Kohn: That's terrific. Well really, all the best for August 16th, we'll all be watching and for the first time I'll be able to say, 'I know that woman, I've spoken to her!'

Deborah Lovely: Yes, fantastic, I hope you can watch it because it is a really exciting and amazing sport, so thanks.

Rachael Kohn: Deborah Lovely, juggling more than weights there - the delicate balance of being a super heavyweight weightlifter and an obedient Christian wife. But it sounds like she's got it pretty well figured out.

League commentator: Now Nutley takes it ahead again, it goes into De Gois, away to Kimmorley then Kimmorley plays a second a play that finishes up with Cardie. Cardie offloads the ball on the far side, it's Simmons and Simmons scores, no he doesn't, there's a forward pass, the referee has found a forward pass.

Man: Oh dear oh dear.

League commentator: The Dragons are off the hook again.

Rachael Kohn: From a recent game of the Cronulla Sharks against the St George Dragons in Sydney.

Rugby league football is the definition of rough and tumble. So these days if you 'come out' as a Christian footballer you're bound to raise some eyebrows. Walking the straight and narrow isn't easy in a culture that expects you to play hard, drink hard, and muck up every now and then. Getting your name in the paper for an assault charge has become all too frequent. But that's not likely to happen to David Simmons, who's a Christian and plays in the centres and on the wing for the Cronulla Sharks. In fact his friend and support, Paul Stevens, is the chaplain for the Sharks and I went down to meet up with both of them, at the East Coast City Church at Taren Point.

Well David, congratulations, you must be chuffed with the win against your old enemy.

David Simmons: Yes, the Dragons, we've beaten them the last four times we've played them which is rare because the Dragons are usually such a strong team and to beat them four times in a Louise Rowling:, I mean over the last two years, is something we're pretty proud of. And very happy with the win on the weekend as well.

Rachael Kohn: So you weren't surprised?

David Simmons: Well not surprised. We go into every game expecting a win, so we got more surprise when we lose than when we win.

Rachael Kohn: What about that referee?

David Simmons: He denied me a try actually, so he did his best I think, so it's hard to say anything about refs these days because there's fines and things and going around, so I think he did his best, but he denied me a try.

Rachael Kohn: Well David, I guess it's good to be a Christian then, because Christians know how to handle these situations.

David Simmons: Yes I mean you'd think the Christian could handle it easier than a non-Christian. I mean just with I guess you could say, there's kind of more of a calmness about me I guess than other people, which comes from knowing God and so I guess things don't really boil me too much, I handle them OK I feel.

Rachael Kohn: Is it easier to be a Christian when you're winning, or when you're losing?

David Simmons: I think that's a good question because often when you're winning everything feels happy and fine and I guess in the times when you're losing, that God teaches you good things, and when you're down God can teach you good lessons. So I guess being a Christian it's probably better if you're losing because you seem to learn more and God seems to speak to you more. I'm trying to be a good Christian when we're winning so hopefully the wins will keep coming. But yes, I mean win or lose, I always pray, God teaches me things through every situation. So yes.

Rachael Kohn: David when did you decide to become a Christian?

David Simmons: An interesting question. I think God decides when you become a Christian. There was a time when I was in High School and I was maybe heading down a wrong path, of just hanging out with mates, partying and all that kind of thing, not worrying too much about God. I think it was then he decided to put me on the right path and that's when I went to my local church in the youth groups there and they taught us about Jesus and that's when I became a Christian.

Rachael Kohn: Did you have to be pushed? I mean usually there's an incident that kind of pushes you to the edge.

David Simmons: Well I mean if you're referring to the actual time that I guess it was a defining moment in my life when I was at a party and I probably had too much to drink which was the wrong thing, because I had training that night actually of soccer, I was playing soccer at the time, so I had soccer training that night, and so I took off to make it home in time for that and just as I left the party it started to rain. I was skateboarding home because I couldn't drive yet, and I took off down a large hill and kind of lost control of my board, I think I hit a little rock, maybe the tiniest rock you've ever seen but it put me off my board and I broke my arm and that sort of ended my season I guess for soccer.

So I was a bit devastated, but as a result of that, it freed up some time for me on a
Friday night and on a Sunday, and my cousin who was a Christian asked me along to church. I had no more excuses for him because soccer was gone, so I just went along and that was the time where like I said, I heard about Jesus and I became a Christian.

Rachael Kohn: Paul Stevens, it's good to talk to you, you must be feeling good, too.

Paul Stevens: I am. I like to take a little bit of the credit when the Sharks win that I've prayed for it, though many seasons we haven't done well and it does reflect on my prayer life I think.

Rachael Kohn: Well is it unusual for an ex-rugby football player to become a chaplain?

Paul Stevens: I think so. I haven't heard of anybody else who's a chaplain who's been an ex professional league player actually. So it's kind of different, unique, yes.

Rachael Kohn: Was it something you decided to do once you retired in 1999 that you were going to become a chaplain for the team?

Paul Stevens: I guess when I - I actually wasn't a Christian in the early days. I guess a really committed Christian I would say, because I kind of believed I was never really a committed Christian till three quarters of the way through my rugby league career which was about 11 years, and God really touched me and I made the decision to really commit my life to him and then from that moment on like the lights went on because I had a belief in God, but now some of the things I hadn't even heard in church or that my Mum had been sharing with me, now they really made sense, and I got very excited in sharing my faith with the other players in my local church I was always keen to help my senior pastor in whatever way I could, and so when I told the boys Look, I'm retiring, I think I'm going to go to Bible College and work as a minister, they weren't surprised at all actually, they could kind of see it coming, and so from there I went to Bible College and worked as a pastor and it was only a few years into that that the Sharks chaplain at the time retired, and moved on to actually being the chaplain for the referees. If anyone needs a chaplain, it's probably the referee the things that they cop these days. And so I ended up, he recommended that I take his place, and so I never started out to be that way, but I can see, to be honest, always used to pray for the Sharks as a club, from the fans to the players, to the coaching staff, and it was always like God had that plan all along, almost, that this was kind of a role really that was going to be even more significant than my playing days, to be honest, yes.

Rachael Kohn: Why did you choose the Pentecostal church, the Assemblies of God church; was that a church in your family tradition?

Paul Stevens: It wasn't actually. I actually grew up in a Catholic church which was great so they gave me a good understanding about God and faith. It was actually my cousins who, even though I was going to church, they knew that I really was a clock-on for an hour, and clock-off during the week. So they knew there was much more and my lifestyle really reflected that I didn't know God because I was very empty on the inside even as a footballer, you know having money and relationships they didn't ever fulfil me, and these guys, they prayed for me and they happened to belong to a Pentecostal church because they'd made a decision for Christ only a few years earlier, and it happened to be the same church that I've been in now for the last 14 years. And when I met the senior pastor, that is Mark Bridgewater, he really impacted me with his kindness and his love and he's a very charismatic, passionate guy about God, and I thought, I've always been passionate about girls, about footy, about making money, I'd like to be passionate about God, and I think through his influence and his wife Bron, I thought This is the place, and I really felt God did speak to me even as a young Christian saying This is where you're meant to be, you know. So I was very grateful for that. I actually started off in an Evangelical church which were fantastic, and they really started the soul search process but it was really God that led me here. Yes.

Rachael Kohn: Paul, is that passion and that charismatic nature really important for the kind of setting you're working in. Do you need to be a big sort of personality that gets through to a lot of players?

Paul Stevens: I think it's like the old saying, 'Different horses for courses', because we fellowship all the chaplains from all the other clubs and they're all from different denominations and different age groups and I'm the only one who's been a footballer. Some of these guys have been ministers and don't have any footy background, but they're doing a fantastic job with their club and so I think it's just the grace of God you know, and I think whatever your personality is, that you use that you know, and to be able to influence and encourage the boys or the team that you've been put in as a chaplain of I think.

Rachael Kohn: David, what are the sort of things you really look to a Chaplain for? I mean there must be a lot of disappointments and feelings of guilt sometimes, if you fumble or if you're not as good as you want to be, do you go to a chaplain for comfort and counselling and guidance?

David Simmons: For me I mean Paul is the chaplain but he's also just a good Christian friend, so we get together and pray as often as we can and so it's good for me to talk about rugby league things, because he's played rugby league and so understands that. So Paulie for me is a Christian mate who also understands my work and understands the friendships I have amongst the team, so we can pray about all things football-related and work-related and that's something I don't really have with anyone else. So Paulie is good for that, just as a friend he'd be good for that because he's the chaplain, you know, that's kind of a role he's taken on as well. For the rest of the boys, I mean Paulie's there for any kind of counselling they'd need, if they've got problems at home, relationships, work, you know he can help them out because he's got training in those areas and stuff. So he's there for them. A lot of the time the boys would think they can handle it on their own, so they wouldn't use him as much as Paulie would like and I'd like, but Paulie's also doing great work with the juniors, like the young kids.

Rachael Kohn: Who are they? Are they the kids from the country who come and play, or what?

David Simmons: Oh, they're kids from everywhere, I mean rugby league these days, you've got to start from the grassroots, you know, developing kids and bringing them from the country and from Queensland and from New Zealand even, so there's kids from everywhere throughout our juniors who are living away from home and find that tough. So Paulie's also there for those kids. Probably does more work with those guys than he would with the first-graders, just because I guess they don't really have someone they can talk with about things, whereas the first-graders might think they can do it on their own. So yes, but Paulie's doing good work there and he's been good for me as well.

Rachael Kohn: What's the big issue, alcohol, drugs, gals, or guys, you know, fights and stuff? What's the worst stuff you have to deal with Paul?

Paul Stevens: I think it's probably just a selection of all those at times. I think some of these first-graders are only young guys you know, you'd be surprised, early 20s and they've been thrust into the media, they're representing their country or their State and some of them come from other areas where they don't have a family or close friends initially, and so I think just helping them to be grounded and to not to wander into some of the areas that won't help their football, I think some of those can be - I haven't come across guys on drugs, but I'm sure that does happen all across, but just the alcohol I think and that from there the fights, as well as the girls, I think they're probably the two. As well as the pressure as well of playing in a high profile sport and like Dave was saying about the young guys, I have done some good work with them, I've actually got an assistant now, Joel Thommo, who's also a little bit younger, he's helping me to help the young guys, because these guys, and they're only really 17, 18, they've got absolutely no-one, they've come from the country so just to be able to support them and we've had some small groups, but we've given them some discipleship and bible study and stuff, and friendships you know. So that they feel supported and as a result they don't need to turn to maybe the alcohol or some company that may be corrupt or not help them in further their career you know. So that's kind of the gist and I've head dealings with a lot of the boys from first-graders down in all of those, really as well as family breakdowns and stuff like that.

Rachael Kohn: How do you get kids to even consider doing bible study? I mean you know, it could be considered daggy or whatever, and you know, 'not for me'. How do you get through to them to look at the bible and show them that it's really an amazing text?

David Simmons: I think - I guess we had about probably end up having about 8 guys actually they were all young Kiwi guys that came to play and I guess they met some of the other young guys in our local church and realised these guys are normal guys and the fact that they didn't know that many people and these guys were doing fun things, attracted them to the small group, and it's not heavy bible study, especially if they've never read it before, but just being able to discuss some of the principles, and I think the big things is when they understand this actually can help them in their life, and I guess most importantly it's the relationships of people who believe in the bible that they've been impacted by, and I think that's the real drawing factor. Because I really know myself and Dave will be the same, everyone's looking for an answer, purpose, meaning, they want genuine real relationships, they want people to love them and someone they can love, and I think really the church is the answer. Believers in Christ is the answer because we've got Christ who's loving and caring and forgiving in us that is kind of the attraction factor, if that makes sense.

Rachael Kohn: That's Paul Stevens, the chaplain for the Cronulla Sharks rugby league football team. With him is David Simmons who plays in the Centres and on the Wing for the Sharks.

I'm Rachael Kohn and in this Olympic season we're talking to sportsmen and women who've dedicated themselves to play hard and pray hard.

Commentator: And that was the run that will put them in the field goal way. It goes to Cardie, Cardie has a crack on his own, he's tackled at 20 metres out, now Kimmorley's got a great opportunity. Kimmorley, he has a shot now, will he get there? The crowd go up, he's kicked it, that was the second time this year. Cronulla have got it out of jail and beaten the Dragons ...

Rachael Kohn: Making it easier for Christian footballers to keep the faith is the Bible Society's sports bible. The Prize is a neat paperback with a colourful waterproof cover, that you can tuck into your gym bag, which is jut what David Simmons does.

Can you give me an example of a passage in the bible that is really powerful for you, that has made a difference for you at a moment when you're not feeling so great?

David Simmons: It's just the start of Luke's gospel that stood out for me. It just says 'Many people have set out to write accounts about the events that have been fulfilled among us. They use the eye-witness reports circulating among us from the early disciples. Having carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I also have decided to write a careful account for you, most honourable Theophilus, so you can be certain of the truth of everything you were taught.'

When that was explained to me, it's just that Luke was like a Jew, I think, and he was investigating the eye-witness accounts and all the things people were saying about Jesus and all the events and he was trying to know for certain and to write to this guy to show for certain that Jesus who was he said he was, and that he rose from the dead. I mean that's just kind of a passage that I guess it's not a big passage, it's not one that you might remember, but it's just something that stood out for me, that Luke was carefully looking at the events of Jesus' life to know for certain he was the son of God. So that was just something that stood out for me. That's something that I'd encourage everyone to do, to examine the life of Jesus to see whether he was a liar or he was who he said he was, you know, he was the son of God. And if you come to the conclusion he was the son of God then you've got to make the decision whether you're going to follow him or turn away. So I think if you do discover he's the son of God, then you've got no choice really, you've got to follow him because that's the way to be saved and it's the only way I feel to go, once you know him. So that's just a passage that I mean it's not a big one but it was just something that I guess you read the bible so much, you sort of read over all these things, and you go back and read it again and it just seems to stand out differently, and that was just one of those passages that stood out for me. The reason it is so valuable and such a good teaching tool is that Jesus lived, he was the son of God and he did rise from the dead again. And that is something that no-one has ever done, or will do. And so for me that just makes the whole bible the truth, knowing the fact that Jesus rose from the dead. So I just take every part of it as something you can learn from. So it's really hard for me to pick out little bits and say that they've struck me more than others because there's so many good things I've read in there, and you can never say you know it all either, God can always teach you different things from the same passage, I feel.

Rachael Kohn: Is your wife a bible believer too?

David Simmons: Yes, my wife was the daughter of our minister, the senior minister at the time. He's since passed away, but she grew up in that church pretty much.

Rachael Kohn: So you're both pretty strong in the faith and both conduct bible study?

David Simmons: Yes, well Sammy's been a Christian her whole life, my wife, so she's a solid Christian woman and she's not an outspoken Christian, she sort of leads by example in her actions and in her life, so that's kind of her ministry in a way, and yes, she helps me to lead the bible study, she's like a support to me and she's a support to all the women in our group as well. So yes, you could say she's a good Christian wife.

Rachael Kohn: Do you also feel that you lead by example, especially with team members?

David Simmons: Yes, I'd say a lot of the time that's all you've got you know, it's very rare that I get to sit down with another player and talk to them about God. Very rare. So all you've got is your actions and I'm always praying God will help me be a good Christian witness to shine, to stand out amongst the boys as being different because that is how people might reconsider the bible, if they can see God working in me, then maybe they'll look at the bible. So it's very rare that I get to talk with someone about God and sit down with them. Paulie probably will say the same thing. So you've got to I guess, lead by example.

Rachael Kohn: Paul I often wondered whether guys who play sport they come in at a young age and they're put into the competition very quickly and sometimes thrust into the limelight, ever get a chance to really mature emotionally and intellectually. But do you come across players you know, big guys, successful in what they do and who present to you at times almost like kids, they can't handle really serious things in their eyes?

Paul Stevens: Sure thing. I don't think it's just sportspeople, I think you're coming across people in general; they can be in their 50s and yes their maturity level, you think Well that's a young person on the inside there, I think in many ways that the graded footballers, they have to grow up very quickly because they're thrust into the media, they're thrust into the limelight they're in the spotlight if you like. But there's other parts of people's life I think the emotional side, the relational side I think, I've noticed that a lot of the guys in particular, not a lot of the guys excuse me but there are guys that aren't that good in relating, and so I have worked through with, on particularly one of the guys about relating to his wife, and even having alcohol as the answer rather than sharing what was going on, and not turning to substance to help him. And I think that can be the case and I know the Sharks in particular, I know a lot of the other clubs, they're very active in trying to help players be well rounded. So they do want them to excel in their education. All the clubs are very open to having chaplains and very encouraging because they recognise that maybe we can add the element of relational and even spiritual dimension to the players, which they want to see them have a well rounded life because they know that also can help them on the field. And so I think there's welfare officers as well in a lot of the clubs, and the coaches themselves and the staff are very good and approachable, and they will address players not just only on their footy but also if they can help on the outside, which I'm sure Dave can share a bit more, but that definitely is a challenge for players and I know that the clubs, particularly the Sharks, they're trying to help play be well-rounded and to combat those issues. Yes.

Rachael Kohn: How do players who really have to look after their body and be top notch, how do they deal with stuff like injury and illness and death, even a family member?

Paul Stevens: I think these footballers they might be worth a lot of money on TV, they're just normal guys, and I think that they hurt just like anyone else and they feel pain, and pressure and I think one of the advantages that I think Dave definitely has is that he is a believer, and that he's connected with people that love him in his local church, that understand a bigger picture and I would say that the plan is to help these boys to understand that there's a God loving them to help them with those things, and also just some of the practicals like being able to share what you're going through when you are injured, when you're dropped, when something does happen to a loved one, when you've got troubles with your spouse, with your kids, and to be able to know that it's not, what's the word? that it is manly to be able to share and ask for help. And I think that's the NRL who is the body over all the clubs, has been very much promoting that, and saying 'You're a man if you are open, and if you share'. It's not a shame to share what's going on in life, the shame is when you bottle up and then you do something crazy as a consequence and then that's on the front page of the paper. That's the same. That's when shame comes. And so if that makes sense, the plan is to help these boys and to encourage boys and people like Dave are great examples in that. And if these boys are open, there's avenues to be able to support them through this, because as footballers, everything, I've helped guys that have gone from break-ups in family, to losing a parent, through sickness, to parents being divorced and being out of home and not being able to cope with two parents no longer together and things like that. So they are very well issues that these players face, like we do.

Rachael Kohn: Paul Stevens there, giving words of wisdom and support to rugby league footballers. He should know, he was one, and now he's their chaplain.

Dave, do you ever face the negative side of this, you know, being razzed and being sort of poked fun at?

David Simmons: Not so much these days. I think a lot of the boys know that I'm a Christian. They might not know what that means at all, but they know I go to church, and I believe in God. There's not a lot of razzing I mean, or payouts that come my way. Sometimes I feel like I'd prefer that they would pay me out and say you're believing in a lie, you know just something so I could talk to them about it, rather than what I'm getting, which is just kind of nothing. They know I go to church, they don't really want to talk about it, it leads me nowhere. So I'd prefer if they were into me all the time about it, because the bible says you're going to face adversity and I think if you don't face adversity you're probably doing something wrong. So I'm always looking maybe just to be different, maybe just challenge a few people's views, just so I can just get something out of them. But that's always just something back on line I'm trying to work on. Yes, there is times like whenever someone mucks up, they always joke that it's me, because obviously they know it wouldn't be, or if Sticky might say you know, Someone's hotel room was left in a bit of state of disrepair, who was it? Everyone'll sort of joke 'It was Mons', that's my nickname, 'It was Simmo'. It's just a joke, because it would never be me. So I mean that's kind of the worst I get. So that's nothing that upsets me. But I'd prefer if they were into me a bit more because then I could at least argue with them about God.

Rachael Kohn: Is there ever any inter-religious tension? You know, between religions? Or churches?

David Simmons: No, again I mean there's people at the club who have different beliefs. But I guess there's never an opportunity to have a conflict or anything, so I wouldn't mind discussing those but it just seems that all the time at training you're worried about footy, and you're working so there's not heaps of time for those kind of conversations.

Rachael Kohn: David are you the kind of Christian who speaks to God, to talks to God during the day? Is that having that conversation important to you, or do you pray at specific times?

David Simmons: It's always the goal to do praying to God throughout the day, kind of just having that open communication. I mean I don't have that as much as I'd like. I definitely just pray, I try and just pray and specific times, I just get triggers, Paulie kind of taught me that, to kind of like pray when I'm walking into training or whenever I drive past maybe one of the boy's houses or past Paulie's church or something, you're reminded to pray about them. So I just try and talk to God pray to God whenever it comes into my head, which is I don't think there's a certain amount of prayer you have to do to be a Christian. So I think it's enough.

Rachael Kohn: Paul, are you a chapter and verse kind of pastor? Do you find it important to be able to put your fingers on a quote from the bible to just speak to a specific situation or person?

Paul Stevens: I think I'm still growing in remembering exactly verse and chapter but generally I do remember the verse itself or at least the general gist of the verse, and I think that is important. It definitely helps my life and I'm a bit like Dave, I try and pray when I can and quote the verses that are very relevant to the situation I'm in, and definitely I think they're good to help others whether I rephrase it so they can understand it, if they're not maybe from that background or for other Christians definitely I'll definitely tell them the verse that comes to mind that would encourage the situation for sure, because the word of God it's so important, it's powerful, it's living, it's active, it really changes life, changes situations and when we put our faith in the word, it really does impact. So for sure, for sure.

Rachael Kohn: Paul I think a lot of people are surprised when they hear quotes from the bible, because they say, 'What? that's from the bible? I have fought the good fight is from the bible?' What are your favourite passages? What passage would you identify as a really good one?

Paul Stevens: One that comes to mind is just a very practical one that helps me daily because of all the many things you've got to do, the pressures that come your way just being a person on this earth you know, and the casting all your cares upon the Lord for he cares for you. And I think that really helps me that God is able to bear my burdens and I can actually cast my cares and my concerns to him and knowing that he's going to help me. I think the other one from Matthew is Seek first the kingdom of God in his righteousness in all these things will be given to you. You know, I think that's really been a motto for my life where I want to seek first God, I want to put him first, the things of God's kingdom first, and I know that he'll look after the rest, my relationships, my finances, the dreams I have that he's given me, I know that he'll do that, but my goal is not to seek those things but to seek him first. And I know that that when I do that's when the joy and the peace and the contentment comes regardless of circumstances. So probably those two really do impact me, that I regularly think of for sure.

Rachael Kohn: Well the Lord has to do a lot here because he's got to get this church built, you've got quite a few rooms here yet to finish, don't you?

Paul Stevens: That's right.

Rachael Kohn: David, is there a last quote you can leave us with?

David Simmons: I've got a quote that is used in The Prize, which is the New Testament bible with all the Christian athletes in the front. It's been put out by the Bible Society and it's a good tool for reaching young athletes and kids and just anyone who's kind of interested in sport. And the quote they use is from II Timothy, Chapter IV Verse 7-8. It says, 'I fought the good fight, I finished the race, and I have remained faithful, and now the prize awaits me, the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, that righteous judge, will give me on the day of his return. And the prize is not just for me, but for all who eagerly look forward to his appearing.' So that is a verse that kind of wraps up why it's called The Prize and it kind of fits in nicely with our kind of jobs that we have with training and pressing on towards a goal. You know, the goal for our team is a Grand Final victory. The goal as a Christian is to on that last day be called a follower of Jesus, and look forward to heaven. And that is the main goal I'm pressing on towards, and hopefully I'll be able to take a few of the boys in the team along with me, which would be real nice. So it's a good verse, and it's something that really explains I guess the goal of our faith.

Rachael Kohn: Dave, Paul, it's been great talking to you today. Thanks so much for allowing me to come in here.

Both: Right, thank you. Thanks very much.

Rachael Kohn: That's been Paul Stevens, former Rugby League footballer and now Chaplain for the Cronulla Sharks. And David Simmons, who plays in the Centre and on the Wing for the Sharks. Breaking stereotypes about the rough and tough rugby league.

You can have a look at my guests by going to our website where you'll find some links to follow.

That's the program this week. It was produced by me and Geoff Wood. The sound engineering by Anne Marie Debettencourt.

Do join me again next week at the same time for another look into The Spirit of Things, with me, Rachael Kohn.

FOOTBALL COMMENTARY/MUSIC

Guests

Deborah Lovely
started in athletics, threw discus at an international level and is now a champion weight-lifter. She won three silver medals at the Commonwealth Games in 2002 and one gold in 2006 when she was captain of the women's weight-lifting team. She is now competing in the Super Heavyweight division at the Beijing Olympics. Deborah will contest her weight-lifting final on Saturday 16 August, roughly at 9.00pm (AEST).

David Simmons
is a professional first-grade rugby league player for the Cronulla Sharks in Sydney. He has played in the centres and on the wing.

Paul Stevens
is a former first-grade rugby league player and is now chaplain of the Cronulla Sharks in Sydney.

Further Information

Deborah Lovely's Homepage

Cronulla Sharks Player Profiles - David Simmons

Eastcoast City Church - Paul Stevens

The Prize: Sports New Testament and DVD
Produced by the Bible Society, The Prize New Testament (NLT) is a version of the New Testament together with a DVD with over four hours of interviews featuring 11 high profile sports stars and athletes talking about their Christian faith. Includes interviews with Deborah Lovely and David Simmons.

Publications

Title: The Prize New Testament
Publisher: Bible Society

Presenter

Rachael Kohn

Producer

Geoff Wood and Rachael Kohn