Counterpoint

Parliament tends to get overlooked in this era of government by press release and sound bites. Nonetheless Counterpoint asks who might be shaping up as the parliamentarians of the year for 2008?

Three members of the press gallery in Canberra nominate for best minister, shadow minister, backbencher and parliamentarian of the year. The panel reconvenes in December to deliver their final verdict.

Transcript

This transcript was typed from a recording of the program. The ABC cannot guarantee its complete accuracy because of the possibility of mishearing and occasional difficulty in identifying speakers.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: What's going on right now is Counterpoint's Parliamentarian of the Year. As before, we ask three members of the press gallery in Canberra to nominate the winners in various categories, such as Best Minister, Best Backbencher, and the big one, Parliamentarian of the Year.

Michael Duffy: And it's too early to do this yet for 2008 but today we'll run through some of the categories and see who in the big house under the hill is at least showing some promise.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: And I now welcome to the program the ABC's Michael Brissenden. Hello Michael.

Michael Brissenden: Hello.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: From The Australian, Sam Maiden. Nice to talk to you again, Sam.

Sam Maiden: Good afternoon.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: And a special welcome to Tony Wright from The Age. Tony is generously standing in for Misha Schubert, our regular panellist who's just had a baby. Thank you, Tony, and welcome to Counterpoint.

Tony Wright: Thank you very much indeed.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: Before we start with your nominations for specific categories, let's have a general look at how things have been going in the time that Kevin Rudd's been running the show. Michael, if I could start with you, what changes have you noticed in the way that parliament functions from the John Howard dominated show to a Rudd parliament?

Michael Brissenden: I have to say to start with I wasn't here for the last session because I was on long service leave in the south of France so I didn't actually get to see very much of the parliament...

Paul Comrie-Thomson: You get no sympathy from us at all, answer the question.

Michael Brissenden: But I did see the session before that, and I'm told that the session that I missed didn't change that much from the one that preceded it. I think that both sides are actually still trying to find their feet about how to deal with this new environment, obviously the Labor Party being in government, the opposition being in opposition. Kevin Rudd, it seems to me, sticks to the script. There's not a lot of emotion, even when he's under pressure...particularly when he's under pressure. He just reads off a script, says 'this is the way it is'. The Belinda Neal case was a classic example of that. But I do think that perhaps it will be different in 12 months time when we get closer to the election and other pressures are around that intensify this a bit more, but the polls at the moment certainly seem to show that whatever they're doing in parliament is working for them at this stage.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: Yes, when you're on a good thing... But Sam Maiden, Kevin Rudd and his stacks of paper, surely that's something, you know... Is that all show or is he a policy wonk who brings in 17 briefs and reads them?

Sam Maiden: I think it's probably a little bit of something for his nerves as well, I think he likes to have his brief in front of him and read from it, and arguably that's a bit of a problem with Kevin Rudd because I don't think that anyone would suggest that John Howard was an amazing parliamentarian or parliamentary performer compared, say, to Peter Costello who was very dominant, but John Howard was very good at speaking on his feet, as would be unsurprising after three decades in politics. John Howard knew what he believed in, he was often very well across his brief and he could speak off the cuff. I'm not sure if Kevin Rudd is quite up to that level yet.

The issue, I suppose, with the Rudd government more broadly in parliament is that sheer, unadulterated, unabashed boredom is afoot in parliament. Question time is very boring, it's very disappointing. You wouldn't expect the government to have necessarily established a natural ascendancy at this point but they clearly haven't, they have some good performers such as Julia Gillard and Lindsay Tanner, but despite their woes in the polls, the opposition is actually not a bad little outfit in parliament and in question time. So generally speaking if you are the sort of person that likes the cut and dash of Paul Keating or Peter Costello in parliament you would walk away a sad, disappointed person from question time these days.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: Tony Wright, are you having trouble staying awake watching proceedings?

Tony Wright: Oh somnambulance is the name of the game. It's as if John Howard has transmogrified into Kevin Rudd and become even more boring. Kevin Rudd is a man of process, he's a born town clerk, and I think the shuffling of the papers is a security blanket for him. There are a couple of good performers, as Sam mentioned, but I think frankly if you want to be amused you look at the other side, and you've got very amusing mob over there; Brendan Nelson and the merry gang.

Michael Duffy: Sam, what's going on with the other side? You said they're not a bad little outfit now. They've adapted well, have they?

Sam Maiden: Well, Brendan Nelson is weak and that's obvious in parliament and it's obvious outside parliament, it's obvious in the dramas that he's had pinning down a climate change policy, but the coalition shadow cabinet team itself is reasonably well organised. They haven't all gone into the depths of doom and gloom, they have a policy development process underway, they have a good system for getting questions, they're quite strong in the senate.

Some of the people make the point that some of the lions of senate estimates, Kim Carr and Stephen Conroy, are still finding their feet in the senate. Stephen Conroy often reads all his answers pat from a laptop which causes much mirth from the opposition when the laptop goes on the blink. So there are elements that I think the opposition is doing quite well. They obviously have a problem with their leader, but some of the infrastructure underneath isn't that bad and they also have a whole group of new young things coming through in the senate and the house of representatives that will give them a bit more energy down the track.

Michael Duffy: Tony, would you agree with that? How's Brendan Nelson going in your view?

Tony Wright: Appallingly. He tries very hard, but it's a very difficult job anyway, being opposition leader and trying to come up with a strategy for questions when you know that the other side are so well briefed and disciplined and anyway are a brand new government having a very jolly time. But Brendan Nelson of course has the added difficulty of trying to impress his own troops when they have eyes for others, one of whom is entirely mute, of course. But at the same time I think he's got a relatively organised front bench. Malcolm Turnbull can be good on his day.

You've got a couple of young people there who are not too bad, Peter Dutton and Greg Hunt, and you've got Joe Hockey lumbering up there to the speaker's table to somehow or other pull things into gear when they get out of control, and face down the opposition and plead for mercy from the speaker himself. So given that oppositions are usually pretty appalling...you only had to look at the opposition pre Rudd to see how things were going for Labor for years...well, this is the opening page for the opposition called the Liberal and National Party opposition.

Michael Duffy: Michael, Sam said that she thought the opposition were making a fair fist of question time. How do you think they've adapted from asking themselves Dorothy Dixers to actually coming up with some interesting questions?

Michael Brissenden: I think that's a really important point, and one of the interesting things in this transition is how you manage this goldfish bowl of an hour which is question time. And when you find yourself on the other side, when your job is to ask the questions and you don't actually have the platform to perform...people talk about Peter Costello's performances in the parliament and how they're sadly lacking in this one because he's so mute, but apart from MPIs which are largely outside the theatre of question time, anybody in the opposition is not going to have that platform that a minister has to stand up and berate the opposition and make points and go on ad nauseam. It really is the theatre for the government, question time, and in that sense it's a very difficult performance.

Michael Duffy: Have there been many question times where the government seemed particularly worried by the questions they're being asked by the opposition?

Michael Brissenden: I haven't seen any yet particularly. It's a rare question time when the questions actually really rattle the government, but certainly that's part of the skill and it's a good day for an opposition when they do well in question time, when the government is caught out and they don't have answers in particular, when they say, 'Look, I'll have to get back to you on that,' and these are good tactical victories. I'm not sure we've seen all that much of that yet.

Sam Maiden: We had a little bit of that earlier this year with Fuel Watch. They did some good set-ups where they obviously had those cabinet documents or they had the information that cabinet and public service had been opposed to it so they asked a few questions, 'there's clearly something going on', there was a bit of a set-up on that. And then there was a few times, even though it was a bit of a splitting-hairs point, that Turnbull had Wayne Swan on the hop with some of these arcane economic definitions and you could see that he was a bit wobbly earlier in the year. So they've had a few things, but generally they're not a bad outfit in question time.

Michael Brissenden: Wayne Swan would win the award for most improved, I think.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: That moves to our next category, Michael, Best Minister. Last year when we talked, it was Mal Brough and Nick Minchin. So starting with you, Michael, Best Minister, who's been putting their hand up?

Michael Brissenden: I do think Wayne Swan has improved a lot but he had come from a very low base, I think the first couple of weeks were pretty low for him. But I think Julia Gillard is a standout performer in the parliament. She's got a mix of policy savvy and the theatrics of it and political cunning. Perhaps it's because no one else is really hitting those highs. Lindsay Tanner does to a certain degree sometimes, but I would say that Julia Gillard would be the stand out parliamentary performer.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: Sam Maiden, how do you see it? Is it Julia Gillard up there at the top or near the top?

Sam Maiden: I might return to her for Parliamentarian of the Year but in terms of ministers, like people that are doing interesting things in their portfolio, I think Lindsay Tanner is very good and very good in parliament as well. Obviously Penny Wong has had a massive brief. She sort of had some stumbles recently on the Lower Lakes but she's got a lot in her bailiwick as well. And the interesting thing, I suppose, about Wayne Swan is that a lot of the problem early on seemed to be psychological, he was a bit overawed by the job, not that he didn't necessarily have the goods. I think that he's got to be given kudos for the tax enquiry, it's very wide-ranging, they're letting a thousand flowers bloom, and that and the pension review will obviously lead to some really big reform agendas down the track. So you've got to give Wayne Swan marks for that, I think, and putting up with all the grief.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: Tony Wright, who has put their hand up as Best Minister?

Tony Wright: I go with the most improved and that is without doubt Wayne Swan. The last session of parliament of course was the budget session and you'd be hardly surprised to discover the treasurer performing there and it's perhaps because we've seen him performing more and more.

Julia Gillard earlier in the year was without doubt the most entertaining and across the subjects that she would be rolling out. I quite agree that as far as a ministerial performance rather than a parliamentary performance you've got Penny Wong who (close your ears if you happen to be listening from South Australia, one hates anyone to do with water over there at the moment), and Jenny Macklin I think has done pretty well with Indigenous affairs. But I would go for Wayne Swan at this point.

Michael Duffy: Tony, I heard Penny Wong give her talk to the National Press Club when she was delivering the climate change paper and I was a bit surprised at how stumbling and halting it was. Is that typical of her or was that just a bad day?

Tony Wright: Normally she's not stumbling and halting. I think it was simply that that was such a big day and you have the media there waiting to pounce upon you, and I can't recall her previously at the Press Club. I think your first performance with such a large brief at the Press Club is always a hard done and you can get knocked off your game a bit. But generally Penny Wong is a very steady performer.

Michael Duffy: Let's talk about shadow minsters now, if there's anyone of note there. Michael, starting with you.

Michael Brissenden: The award for getting himself heard I think is Greg Hunt...

Michael Duffy: A new category!

Michael Brissenden: ...who went skydiving for a solar future, which I thought was something pretty extraordinary. He strapped himself to someone else and flung himself out the plane and declared that the solar panel rebate was freefalling.

Sam Maiden: The video is on his website, you've got to check it out.

Michael Brissenden: It's fantastic, it doesn't get better than that really.

Sam Maiden: It's to the tune of 'Flying into the Danger Zone', isn't it. Yes, Top Gun.

Michael Duffy: We should put a link on the Counterpoint website, I think.

Michael Brissenden: So, get on to Greg Hunt's website.

Michael Duffy: Anyone that's a bit better than that?

Michael Brissenden: Look, well...I think it's been a difficult period for the opposition at this stage and being an opposition minister because there's so much uncertainty about what really the direction is going to be, and you might come out and profess something at this point and, who knows, Malcolm Turnbull will be the leader by the end of the year and you'd be professing something in the wrong direction. I do think it's been a bit difficult, although it's going to get easier as the year goes on, and I think Tony Smith, for instance, is going to have a fair amount of fun with the fact that there aren't too many computers in schools at this point. There will be some big issues. But, look, at this stage I do think it's been pretty tough. Malcolm Turnbull, he's done quite well. I think he's handled his portfolio well, he's taken the argument up to the government pretty well.

Michael Duffy: Tony, any other names you'd like to throw into the mix?

Tony Wright: I'll go back to Joe Hockey who under difficult circumstances is always up to the plate to defend his side. I like Tony Abbott's performances quite often, at least he's a conviction politician, and of course you have Julie Bishop who has at least backed her leader a few times. But I think Greg Hunt for earnestness and trying under battle conditions to show the opposition has some environmental credentials. And of course Malcolm Turnbull. But I think I'll go for Greg Hunt because he's an up-and-comer.

Michael Duffy: Okay. Sam, anyone else we haven't mentioned?

Sam Maiden: Malcolm Turnbull can be a bit hit and miss sometimes but he does have authority when he talks about the economy. I think that he's been working quite well. I think there was some expectation that he'd take a bit of hit on the climate change debate and then shadow cabinet seemed to prevail over Brendan Nelson's push to make their policy shift to the right a bit more on emissions trading scheme. Other than that, Greg Hunt had the Yes, Minister award for trying to explain what Brendan Nelson's position was during that week where they couldn't work out what it was.

I like Joe Hockey but I'm not sure if he's been really out there on the health debate. Then you've got Andrew Robb in foreign affairs who should be able to get out from under Alexander Downer now he's nicking off to Cyprus or wherever he's going. Downer kept getting on the radio every time there was something to discuss on foreign affairs.

Eric Abetz is quite aggressive in the senate. And then the problem with Julie Bishop I suppose is she sort of presents well but then beneath the image and all the profile pieces it's really difficult to work out what her politics are. She runs a really tough, rightwing line on Work Choices which is very WA-specific but big underneath and she's quite lefty on climate change and moderate and has a different view on federalism behind closed doors to some of her WA colleagues. So she's really hard to work out what she's all about really.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: Tony, we have a category which is Best Backbencher, and to put it in perspective, last time the panel talked it was Petro Georgiou, Kate Ellis, Justine Elliot. In terms of the reserve grade, who's doing stuff...and perhaps they might get an award for 'shows promise' or 'could try harder'...who's around?

Tony Wright: Look, I think it's a bit early for me to be choosing a particular backbencher for their actual performance, although of course Wilson Tuckey deserves a mention because he's always there tossing in his comments. I think his classic day was the day he shouted the Lord's Prayer and then with Christian resolve walked out so that he wouldn't have to vote on the Apology. That was one of the great efforts.

And then you've got Grizzly Adams over the other side, Dick Adams from Tasmania, a very big man, hard to miss, and of course he throws in some very earnest 'grrrs' every now and again. But I think the standout winner of the Backbencher of the Year will undoubtedly be Peter Costello simply because he has caused more interest and centimetre inches to be covered in newspaper print than I've ever seen before for a man who has not uttered a word. So, Peter Costello as the most mysterious role in backbenching while causing hysteria all round.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: That's a new category. Sam Maiden, same question to you. I remember last time we talked you were very impressed with Grizzly Adams, and his interjections. Is there any backbencher around now that's taking your interest?

Sam Maiden: On a more serious note and who the up-and-coming people are...bear in mind that the ministry on the Labor side and the shadow ministry is so large now that everybody gets a pony, but I think Scott Morrison from NSW is definitely up-and-coming, performing quite well. Simon Birmingham from SA doing good work on the committees, these are the sort of people that you might see in the junior outer shadow ministry down the track. On the Labor side, David Feeney from Victoria is just very smart and going to go on to big things, I don't doubt.

You'd sort of expect that the new senator Mark Arbib, the former NSW secretary, would be headed for big things because of his factional power, but I must say that I'm sure...I know he's a lovely man but he's been annoying the hell out of me on Sky News, he goes on and regurgitates all the pat lines from their briefing notes and doesn't seem to have any ideas of his own. So if I was in charge of Mark Arbib I would be forcing him to go and sit on some committees and learn about parliamentary process and have a think about what he thinks about some of these things beyond the Labor cheat notes.

Michael Duffy: Michael, I'm sorry to change course in midstream here but can we revert to the subject of committees. I know Sam has mentioned it once or twice today. The Labor opposition in its time was quite effective in the way it used the parliamentary committees to put pressure on the government. How are the opposition performing in that regard, and also (and Sam mentioned this earlier) how do you think the government is acting in the ministerial role there?

Michael Brissenden: I have to say I haven't watched a lot of the committees, but the committees are a very important part of the process. I do think, as Sam said, the government had a bit of a difficulty coming to the transition of actually being on the other side of this, and that is always going to be a difficult transition. Also John Faulkner and Robert Ray have dominated the committee process for such a long time, it's going to take a while for the government to find, I guess, committee attack dogs of that stature and that skill. Those people are obviously going to shake out in the next little while. But I think it's a bit early yet to judge actually how they're performing.

Michael Duffy: Sure. I know it's early days, but would anyone like to hazard a guess about who might be the Parliamentarian of the Year, or is it too early for that too?

Tony Wright: I'm going to give it to Prime Minster Kevin Rudd for one performance and that was the Apology. I think that was the one outstanding matter of statesmanship we've seen in the parliament this year. It's very early days, and I'll give it to that because I can't think of too many other outstanding moments in parliament by a parliamentarian.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: And quickly, Sam, your prediction at this stage?

Sam Maiden: Oh just for the aggression factor probably Julia Gillard. And I should have mentioned in my Best Backbencher as well the nostalgic choice of Senator Alan Eggleston who has been hugely active in the committees and knows a lot and is a fascinating gentleman.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: Michael, we've got about ten seconds. Prediction?

Michael Brissenden: I'll stick with Julia Gillard I think; for all-round political and parliamentary performance, she's a standout.

Paul Comrie-Thomson: Thanks very much for talking to us. The ABC's Michael Brissenden, The Australian's Sam Maiden, and from The Age in Melbourne, Tony Wright.

Guests

Michael Brissenden
ABC

Sam Maiden
The Australian

Tony Wright
The Age

Presenter

Paul Comrie -Thomson & Michael Duffy

Producer

Ian Coombe

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