Crime And Punishment on Radio National

Offending Behaviour

Broadcast on Radio National's Radio Eye at 2.00pm, Saturday October 26, 2002

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"Do the crime and you do the time" has been the cry of those pushing for harsher sentences. No soft options. But if jails simply breed bigger criminals there has to be a better way.

This program takes you to what's called a Youth Justice Conference where the offender is often confronted by the victim as well as the arresting police. In New South Wales, kids who go through the process are less likely to re-offend than those who don't and when faced with the consequences of their actions, the young offenders find the situation anything but "soft".

Offending Behaviour. Transcript

For the past three weeks on Radio Eye we've been focusing on crime and punishment, and in particular how the policies of "law and order" are driving our prison population up into record numbers.

This week we're taking a different approach - instead of looking at traditional forms of "punishment", we're looking at a process that's diverting young offenders away from courts and detention centres.

It's a crime that could take place in any town anywhere in the country. Two teenage boys vandalise a vacant house in a housing estate. Property crime is one of the most common and costly juvenile offences, and in this case, the two boys kick in walls and cause $50,000 damage. They're caught by the police and admit their guilt. Under the Young Offenders Act, introduced into NSW law in 1997 the police have three options - to warn the boys; to caution them at the police station, or to send them to a youth justice conference where they will face the victim and the police.

Today, Radio Eye will join the boys and their families at that conference. It's the first time that the Department of Juvenile Justice has allowed a youth conference to be broadcast. Everyone at the conference has agreed to the recording. For legal reasons, no-one aside from the conference convenor will be named or identified and people's voices have been changed. The conference has been edited.

This is "Offending Behaviour"…

A: On the day it happened, me and a friend wagged school and went into this place and thought it'd be fun to kick a few holes in the walls. Nothing better to do really.

D: Like we were kicking in the walls, and pulling in walls and stuff and just ripping things down and running around and the place was all boarded up so we thought it was empty or ready to be bulldozed or something…

A: Yeah, empty house. No one lived in it. I was in the front room, right next to the door and just seen the reflection on the door of the police colours and car pulling up.

It was scary. Just ran up to the back of the house and tried to get out through a window but it was boarded shut. All the windows were.

D: When I saw them I panicked and didn't know what to do. They just said that we're under arrest and they asked us to take off our shoes and our socks and...

A: Took our wallets, everything we had - our shoes, our hats and everything and put us in the back and took us down the police station. That was it.

Radio Eye: What was going through your mind at that time, do you remember?

My dad's going to murder me. My friend was thinking the same.

D: I was a bit worried because it was quite a serious matter, and it's not really every day that your son gets called up to a police station on charges of malicious damage. I was worried.

D: I was put into a miniature cell and my friend was put into one as well and he was, we were both separated and I was talked to by one of the police officers there, and I was read my rights and asked questions, like if I was a different nationality or just basic things like that.

A: Oh, I was sitting in the cell and the police dude came in and said, "You can either tell me what happened and the truth now and just get off with a caution or you can keep it going with your little story and go to court with it". And then I told him what happened and they told us to come back about a month later, and then we found out that it had been moved up to a conference instead of a caution because of the extent of the damage.

Radio Eye: What was the extent of the damage, do you know?

I think it was about $50,000, somewhere there.

Convenor: The conference will start at 9.30 ... and the families will arrive. The young people will come with their families and one of the young boys is bringing his girlfriend. So there'll be mothers and fathers. The police will come, the investigating officer and the youth liaison officer. The victims will arrive that represent the owners of the property that was vacant and damaged. And we'll gather and sit in a circle.

I'm Jo Tregear, I'm a youth conference convenor with the Department of Juvenile Justice in NSW.

Neither of these young people have been in trouble with the law beforehand and this particular conference will be to try and help them understand the consequences of the damage that they've caused, how it's flowed into the community, how it's flowed into their families, how it affects them longer term as well.

Is that the first time that you'd ever been in trouble with the police?

A: Yeah.

So what happened then. Did they ring your parents?

A: Yeah. Where I was living at the time with me dad didn't have the phone on, so they contacted mum and she come in. Could tell she was pretty angry. Just wanted to get back out of there and home.

A's mum: I was scared for him. Worried how he'd react to it. I was disappointed and I s'pose angry. Like he's been in a bit of trouble at school and had a few hassles with the teachers but nothing like this. I just said why? Why? I just couldn't understand why.

What do you think he's feeling at the moment?

He's a bit confused and I think he sort of doesn't know what to think at the moment. Like he doesn't want to upset me, he's worried about what his father's gonna think, what everyone else is gonna think.

I just think it will be good for him. It's a way of making them realise what they've done.

A: ... 'bit nervous. Being in the same room as the people that I've just caused all that damage for and that. How they're gonna react and that. Just can't wait till it's over.

Convenor: What we're concentrating on in this conference is the incident that happened on the 27th May. I think that was a Monday and it was an afternoon when both of you boys were involved in an incident where you caused damage to a vacant property. And you were caught by the police and you went to the police station and made a statement. Is that right?

Boys: Yeah.

Convenor: And you were there in the presence of your stepfather and your mum - is that right?

Boys: Yeah.

Convenor: And when you made the statement you actually signed it and admitted to doing the damage?

Boys: Yeah.

Convenor: O.K. So we'll just clear that up first.

D: The outcome I think, is what I'm dreading most because I don't mind doing like, community service or going and doing something like that. I'm happy to do that, we've already tried to find some places to do it and um, I've just been worried if it's going to be like, a long thing that I have to go through for years. I've just been worried about that fact of it.

D's stepdad: I hope for a cleansing sort of process where everyone gets the opportunity to download, you know, including us. And obviously we need to be there as a support role, so there's almost conflicting interests there - wanting to support our son and wanting to say how we fell about the matter - which is not very good.

D's mother: I hope it's a healing thing. I hope that my son learns from it that the public aspect of it will only get worse. That a court situation is more public. It keeps it private, yet still deals with it.

D's stepdad: You know I hope that the conference will bring all these issues to a head and to a close. At the moment they're like open wounds and the conference will put that to rest. It'll be over.

Convenor: And what I'd like to do now is to get you to tell us what happened on that day, what was going through your mind at the time, how you ended up in a vacant property and what you did and how you feel about it now and I might just start with you D, and you can just give us a bit of a rundown...

D: Well A & I, we'd skipped school and we were walking around and doing things, just walking around and we ended up at the house and we walked in there, the doors were open, we walked in and looked around and there was damage done to the place so we thought it was like ready to be demolished and …one thing led to another and we started to kick in the walls and dismantle the place and...at the time I wasn't thinking of what we were doing.

I wasn't thinking of how it would affect the other people and the people who owned the place, but once the police had turned up I was shocked to find that we had been caught and that we had to now go through a lot of hassle to work it out and find out what had to be done and ...it affected my family a lot because it wasn't something that was expected of me to do, and it wasn't something I expected myself to do either, it just, it had happened and I wasn't thinking right at the time and I don't know why I done it and like, I look back now and I wish I had never done it and it made quite a bit of damage and ...it wasn't really a good thing that I done.

Convenor: And A, what about you, what happened for you on that day?

A: Same sort of thing, we were just walking around and walked up the path that the house was on and the door was just it bit open, we went in there. It was all dark and the windows were boarded up and so there was a few holes in the walls. We just started running around the place, punching and kicking holes in the walls ...there's one wall that just kept getting damaged. We just seemed to be getting more into it as it went on ...and then before we knew it the police had arrived out the front. We tried to get out but we couldn't.

How did you feel then?

Scared, worried...what me dad would think and that.

And when you look back on it now, how do you feel about it?

I wish I just ... went to school. It's not worth all this trouble.

Who do you think has been affected by this?

Everyone. Everyone here today. I was living with my dad at the time, now I live with mum because of that. Yeah.

Convenor: OK, all right. We'll go and talk to the representative that's come to represent the vacant property and just hear what happened from your point of view.

Victim: When we were first notified that the house was damaged, we had to send out another officer to have a look. There was a fair amount of damage that had been done. There wasn't much left standing of the inside of the house. From there then the decision was made as to what was going to be done, um, and an estimate of the costs which was about $50,000 worth of damage. They ... we had to pay someone to remove what was left of any sheeting and tidy the house up which is still to be sold. And that is all set for sale but is unlikely to get the same price as it would of done had it still had walls attached and someone doesn't have to do some work to it before they can move in. So it's a lot of time and effort.

And then there's the other side of the community in the area with neighbours and things saying who they think it is, that it was done by some other children in the area and that's what the majority of the people that live there believe.

So how does that impact the community?

Obviously some of the people live out there on their own. They're older people, they may not feel as secure in their homes if they know that people can get in and do that amount of damage.

Convenor: O.K. I'd like to just ask the families, the support people that have come to support you just to give their own thoughts and feelings on it, and we might just start with you, you can tell us what it was like for you.

A's mum: When I first got the phone call I was worried for him because I knew he'd be scared. I was very angry, I just wanted to know what really went on, but um, when I came in and seen him I knew he was scared...and it's affected us really, he's come to live with us, that's welcome but it's not a good condition of him coming there, but it's changed him, he's more ...it has had a deep effect on him. Like he's um...he's been a lot more helpful around the house and… a lot better within himself, his attitude. And I think this is a good thing what's happening today. It helps everyone get their feelings out. It's good because he needs to talk about it.

Convenor: And as your mum is talking can you hear the concern?

A: Yeah.

Convenor: What about D's folks? We'll start with your mum.

D's mum: Well I was shocked, because D's always been such a... he's been a good boy, it's not in character for him to do something like that. And I s'pose it's just a whole lot of mixed feelings from sorrow and sadness and what went wrong and anger, and a whole mixed bag of feelings there.

Convenor: And when you look back on it now the feelings that you've got now?

D's mum: I still wonder what happened, they're both good kids in their own way and just…and I hope for better things for them and I hope he's learnt something from this and doesn't get involved in anything like this ever again.

D's stepfather: Um, Well I was both worried and disgusted when I got the phone call from the police station, that D had done anything as bad as needing to be bailed up by the police and um, when I saw him there in that perspex cell my heart went out to him I s'pose because I'm his stepdad and all I wanted to do was help him and I told him to tell the truth and we'd start tackling this from a good foundation, which he did. And so in the mechanics of dealing with all this, in a strange way it made me closer to him.

But it's been a source of friction between D & I over several occasions and I haven't necessarily been always fair, because I've been annoyed, and this matter has never been healed, you know, it's never finished until hopefully today. And D would often say, "when am I going to live it down?" and I didn't know the answer to that, and so I realised it was still an open wound and that's what I hope we achieve today.

Convenor: And you're pretty close to him?

D's girlfriend: I like to think so. Um, I know that it's definitely affected the family. As his stepfather said it has caused occasional conflict and since it's happened all he thinks about is it, and he's worried that in the future that it's going to be a really bad memory for him. His stomach always gets in knots and...

Convenor: You boys are lucky you've got people that care that much about you and I think what I'm hearing is that these people want to see you back on track.

D: I want to see that too, I want to see a good result out of it and see that we can do something good too...

A: Get it off your chest, just get it out.

Convenor: Well we'll ask the police how it's affected them - and we'll start with you.

Police 1: Yeah sure, um, I was kind a shocked, I'd been down the house a couple of weeks before the young fellas got in there and the residents were worried, particularly the lady that lived behind. She's a single mother with a little baby, she was um, her and a lot of other people up and down the street were very worried about people getting in there. And there was some damage occasioned the last time I was in there. And to walk in, it was a shock that within the space of an hour two young fellows could do such an amount of damage.

I think I was speaking to you, was it you D that I was speaking to that said you got up in the manhole as well and was kicking the gyprock down from the ceiling as well? Yeah from what I could see there wasn't a surface in there really that was left untouched.

Convenor: What was the boys' attitude like?

Um, very positive. Even before their parents got there they were very up front about what happened. They had it explained to them the ins and outs of the young offenders system whereby if they were man enough, I s'pose you'd say, to own up to what happened they might get a chance to deal with it in this sort of forum than having to go to court. Um, and both of them took that opportunity and owned up to their actions straight off the bat. I mean both of them impressed me as being decent young fellas, and obviously it's evident today in their backing from their close-knit family where it's come from.

Radio Eye: You're with Radio Eye on ABC Radio National, and today we're at a youth justice conference. We're about to join another of the local police constables at the conference - the youth liaison officer.

Police 2: Being the Youth Liaison Officer, has a lot of different aspects to it ... the thing I always wonder though from both the boys point of view ... was it worse that you were in trouble with the police, or at home?

There's no right or wrong answer.

A: Both really. 'Cos I moved houses over it - like, moved homes and that had some effects and then being in trouble with the police as well didn't make me feel real good about myself. But…yeah.

And how did you feel?

D: I was more worried about home because it's a place where I've got to be all the time, and that sort of thing can cause a lot of trouble and problems between family members. Like me and my father we had a few arguments about it. And it was hard to discuss at home. It has been a big effect with the police but with home I felt that it was more of an issue, between family.

Police 2: The other good thing I've heard with yours though was your stepdad said it actually caused him to feel closer to you - even though there's friction, there's good.

D: Yeah I feel the same way about that - I think it has brought my stepfather and I together because it's a serious issue and it's a good thing to sort serious things out with family and get over it, and not be hated and disgusted at because of what they've done - it's been forgiven and forgotten and I feel a lot better about it, and after it I do feel a lot closer to him for it.

Police 2: So I think even though it's a terrible event that's happened, it's good that we could deal with it without you getting a criminal record such as going to court. That's why I like the use of the Act anyway.

The other thing I wanted to say to A was that your mother said that it's changed your attitude at home, you're more helpful, and all that sort of thing. Why do you think that is?

A: It's given me a sort of a shake, sort of thing, sort of wake up. I just feel sorry, sort of thing.

So it's a good for you in that way that you were caught?

A: Yeah.

Do you think you would feel the way you do about family members and other things if you weren't caught?

A: I'd probably still be living in town and running around the streets and that.

So you think you could have possibly mean in more trouble with the law now if you hadn't been caught?

A: Yeah.

How do you think?

D: It's…like A said it shook him, same with me. It's made me think about it and I've learnt from it and I know not to go trespassing now. And I'd know when to stop now and when to think because I have that on my memory of it.

Police 2: That's good. The other thing that I just wanted to bring up was how the others around there were feeling? How the people around there didn't feel safe as everything- how does that make you feel?

D: Well it's worried me to hear that because I didn't think about that aspect of it and think that it would have affected the community around there and made them not feel safe any more.

Police 2: How do you feel about it?

A: Different now you said there's a single mother living across the road that was scared for her baby and that. Yeah.

Convenor: And I think we also heard that someone else was actually blamed for it, so the community actually thinks someone else was responsible, is what you were saying. So the community has actually semi-targeted another group of kids, which puts them in a really bad light.

Police 2: I'd just also want you to know that once the police finish at the job we actually don't forget about it... and I must say that, on the day, and after dealings I've had with both of you, it's very positive. So don't think that we think little of you, that's all I want you to know.

Convenor: I'd say that's a pretty big vote of confidence.

Boys: Yeah it is.

Convenor: That's important. Does anyone have anything else to add at this point?

D: I'd like to add that what happened was a huge shock to me and my family and then to come home and discuss it for how many days later we discussed it and I'd like to apologise to the community and apologise and thank the police for their time, and apologise to my family for what I've done and how they've reacted to it and how I've affected them. I can see that I've done bad.

A: I'd like to say sorry to D's family as well. Like, I used to come over and stay at his house and when you do this they must think I'm a bit of an influence on him so...

Police 2: With that, I just want to say to everyone involved that everyone makes mistakes, no-one in this room could ever say we haven't done anything we shouldn't have done. All we expect as parents and police is that you learn from it...and that's all we expect.

D's mum: Well I expected to have those people around but to see their faces was a more human element, and it brought back the memory of the day and the consequences of it.

A's mum: I think it's just admitting that your children have made a mistake and got into trouble with the law is the worst thing…yeah, in front of everybody and, you know, and plus I was scared for him as well. But he seems a lot better about it now.

D: I felt a bit uncomfortable to hear the victim's point of view because I wasn't sure what she'd say about it and how she'd felt and how they'd been hit with an issue to deal with. But I later realised that it wasn't just her that had been affected. I 'd affected my family and myself and the community around me and the police and…I felt that I had to make something good out of it.

Convenor: The whole purpose of the conference is to get to the outcome plan so it is a very critical part of the conference. It's um, an agreement between the young person and the victim - what they're going to do to make up for some of the damage that they've done...so the victims will make some suggestions about what they'd like to see, the young person has also been encouraged to think about that -so they will have some ideas as well - and when they come back in they will offer some ideas about what they'll do to make up for what they've done. And the outcome plan is an agreement between the victim and the young person, so both parties need to agree with it.

Once that's all signed and everyone's happy with it then that becomes a legal document and the young person is checked or monitored to make sure they do what they say and if they don't it will referred back to the police or back to the courts.

Convenor: O.K. You've had a chance to talk about what you might be able to do to make up, make it right for the victim. What sorts of things have you come up with? I might start with you D.

D: Um, well I said before that um, we had enquired about volunteer work for weekends.

D's stepdad: They assist disabled and elderly people to go to things like bowling and sporting fixtures and get out and about on the weekends to do things rather than sit in the old people's home or whatever…

Convenor: And what sorts of things would you be doing with them?

D: Like taking them out on weekends or weekdays and helping them out.

Convenor: How do you feel about that?

Victim: Yeah, happy.

D: If there's anything that you would like me to do, if you want to mention anything I'll…

Victim: No I think that's probably…yeah, you're obviously going to learn from that and it's putting something back into the community to help people.

Convenor: Yes, now what do you think about in terms of the number of hours do you think would be appropriate? I'd suggest something like 20-25 hours, I think, and you can make that then 3 hours or 4 hours at a time and just work it off. How does that sound?

D: Yeah.

Convenor: Is that O.K.?

D's stepdad: Yeah, good.

Convenor: Are we comfortable that that's adequate?

Police 2: No. I'd like…just while we were talking about it, it seemed to be that you said it was fun and you had nothing else to do, I thought maybe if we got some sort of interest going in both of you. What I'd like to see, and I don't know what you think, is so many participation times at the PCYC. They've got boxing and all that sort of stuff running down there, and I know that that could, I know that could be looked at as a violent thing, but it is also looked at as a structured thing and they get to learn discipline and they get to learn structure and they get to learn how not to use their aggression because boxing and fighting can hurt. And they get to learn that. They learn not to use it when they shouldn't be as well.

Convenor: So we've got the voluntary work, say 25 hours. We've got letter of apology. And we've got 12 participations in some sporting routine at the PCYC. Is everyone O.K. with that?

Victim: Yeah. Are you leaving school this year or are you staying on?

D: Oh I'm staying on.

Police 2: What do you want to do when you leave school?

D: I'm not sure. I've never really been sure of what I want to do, but I wouldn't mind getting into hospitality or doing some, like doing bakery or something like that.

Police 2: And what do you want to do when you finish and get your Year 10?

A: I don't know. Something graphic or…haven't really given it much thought.

Police 2: Because playing life as it comes might lead to, heaven forbid, getting into trouble. So we need to get a little bit structured and work out what we want to do.

Boys: Yeah.

Convenor: All right. So for you then A, we've got the voluntary work, say 25 hours and 12 participations in some sport at PCYC. You're already registered at Mission Australia for part-time work and we want you to continue that contact, and we'll make a note that you've already tabled a letter of apology and that you're planning to do your Year 10 at TAFE next year. Yeah. Excellent.

Police 2: The only thing that concerns me with both of them is that the people around that are scared, we haven't been able to make that better and we haven't been able to take the stigma off these young kids that everyone thinks has done the damage. Is there anything that anyone can think that can think of …

D's stepdad: A letter could be put out that the people who did do it have been found, and have co-operated and they've admitted it and due action's been taken and the matter's been laid to rest. If they know that they're not still at large so to speak.

Convenor: Are you guys happy with that?

Boys: Yeah.

Convenor: What is it that you're going to say in this letter?

D: Um, that there's no need to be worried about being around the area.

A: Mm, don't feel threatened sort of thing.

D: And not to be worried that something's going to happen while they're out. And that what we've done has made an impact on ourselves and our family and…

A: The police and…

D: That we're doing something to pay back the community and the people around it who we've affected.

Convenor: Good. All right. Anything anyone wants to add?

D: I'd like, once again I'd like to add how sorry I am for this and I, it was something that I wish I had never done, and to everyone that it's affected I'm sincerely sorry about it and I want to make amends for it.

Convenor: Good. And this will do that. This will help you put this behind you. Because if you let this thing stay in front of you, every choice you make and every new venture you go into, if the new things are filtered through this event, it's going to affect you future. So one of the things that we want to do is to draw a line under it, and obey the penalties and move on, because I think that's really important. We don't want to see you again in this kind of situation.

Boys: No. I don't either.

Convenor: This was a one-off, and we've learned from it and now we can move on.

Radio Eye: One of the things that people in the community say about this process of conferencing is that it's a soft option. Do you feel like you've been let off lightly?

D: No. Because, when I got there it was…the conference was a stress to me because I thought it was going to be a lot bigger than it actually was. So that had been upsetting me. And also um, the outcome and what I have to do to fix it is going to take virtually the rest of the year so, I know it's not defined, but it's still something I have to do. And while I'm doing it I'll know what it's from, and that it's something I have to learn from.

A: It was cool - a lot different to what I thought it was going to be. I thought it would be people standing over us and yelling at us and that, but it was really friendly, it was cool.

And what did you think about the outcome of it all?

Oh I'm happy. I think we got off pretty lightly.

Convenor: I think those two kids were scared about coming here. They were frightened. They were nervous. There were a lot of tears in that conference, and that's not easy. It's not easy to see you've hurt someone that much that they are crying. And I think, you know, kids are very touched by that. And I'm not saying that their parents weren't angry at some point but that didn't come out today. They had worked past that and they were just feeling really sad.

D's stepdad: There's a lot of focus on what they did and what they have to do to make good their actions. It doesn't allow them to escape the issues. So it's certainly not soft in that respect. You know I sometimes think going to court and winning or losing may brush it under the table with a fine or a criminal record, and there's no real focus that the culprit is forced to face. D seemed to be forced to face these issues on a protracted basis. People often use the word soft as a pejorative sort of term, in that it's inappropriately lean. And I don't feel it's soft in that context. But I feel it's gentle in that it enables them to be delivered from the hell that they've created, back into the sanity of the community that we're trying to create for them.

Police 2: Whether it is or is not the same as what they'd get at court, I think it's very positive and it's more in tune with the young person having to be accountable for their actions. A lot of time at court they may get a fine, a monetary fine or something. Mum or dad's gonna pay it, because they don't work. It hurts the parent, not the child, Not that we want to hurt the child but we want them to be accountable for their own actions. So this is more making the child be accountable for their actions.

Convenor: I think it's a wonderful opportunity to keep kids out of the court procedures, out of detention centres, to give another option to the police for degrees of difficulties that kids get themselves into. Cautions don't always work. It's interesting then to see them be cautioned a few times and then come to conference and for the first time actually have to face the people that they've harmed or damaged in some way. I think it's vital that there's another option. It's not appropriate in every case, but nothing ever is. And I think it just gives us more flexibility.

D: I've learnt to be more aware of what my actions can do, and how I can affect the community and my family and how something that seemed so small turned into a big thing that's taken a few months to find even an outcome for it.

Has it made you feel differently about the future?

A: Yeah a bit. Sort of keen to get all of this out of the way and kinda start fresh.

Radio National Links

Crimetime: Exploring the links between crime and popular culture. Produced by Annabelle Quince for Radio National's, The Big Idea.
The Electronic Zoo: On Sunday October 13 @14.05, (rpt Thursday October 17 @13.05) Radio National's Hindsight program revisits Katingal, the state-of-the-art, sensory deprivation jail built by the government of New South Wales in the early 70s.
Inside The Gulag. An investigation of the Detention Centre business produced by Tom Morton for Radio National's, Background Briefing.
On Awaye! on Friday 4th October @ 1.05pm, (repeated Saturday 5th October @ 6.05pm) Max Stuart: Black and White. In 1958 Arrernte man, Max Stuart was convicted and sentenced to hang for the alleged rape and murder of a young girl at Ceduna in South Australia. The case divided the nation and, it's said, changed police and judicial procedure in this country. It's now been made into a film starring Robert Carlyle.
Tougher laws to deal with crime. Broadcast on Radio National's Australia Taks Back - October 3rd, 2002. Do draconian law and order policies help reduce the crime rate?
The Law Report on Radio National
Do governments' draconian law and order policies have any effect on reducing crime rates? - Radio National's Australia Talks Back
Law and Order on Australia Talks Back
Professor David Brown from the University of NSW discusses law and order electioneering on Radio National's Perspective
Also on Perspective:
Bail Laws and Prison Remand
Identity Theft
Innocent and In Gaol
Police Unions in Australia