The Ark

According to tradition, the evangelist Mark founded the community of Christians in Egypt in the first century. They were named Copts.

Transcript

This transcript was typed from a recording of the program. The ABC cannot guarantee its complete accuracy because of the possibility of mishearing and occasional difficulty in identifying speakers.

Dr. Gawdat Gabra, the Former Director of the Coptic Museum of Cairo, recently visited Australia to establish Coptic Studies at Macquarie University.

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Rachael Kohn: If you've ever wondered how ancient Egyptian sounds, just visit a Coptic church and listen to the liturgy. Hello, this is The Ark, and I'm Rachael Kohn.

The Copts not only incorporated ancient Egyptian features into their church, but they gave the rest of Christianity the basilica style of architecture and the practice of monasticism. It's even thought that the Copts introduced Christianity to the British Isles.

The Coptic Church's current Pope, Shenouda the Third, has visited Australia many times, but recently Dr Gawdat Gabra, from Cairo, was invited by Macquarie University to lecture on the history of Coptic Christianity.

Gawdat Gabra: When the Arabs invaded Egypt all the people were Christians, so we call them the Copts, means Egyptians. There's a Greek word, which means the capital, (Memphis) and so they applied the term for all the Egyptians, and became Copt. The Arabs pronounce it Copts.

Rachael Kohn: So it's an Arabic word.

Gawdat Gabra: It is an Arabic word of a Greek word. And then when most Christians became Muslims, converted to Islam, so they [those who didn't convert] were Copts, which means Christians, not Muslims.

Rachael Kohn: Right. Now who founded the Christian community in Egypt?

Gawdat Gabra: The Copts are proud of the tradition of Eusebius in the 4th century, that it is Mark the Evangelist, he was the first preacher of Christianity in Egypt. He came to Alexandria in the middle of the 1st century and he was also the first Patriarch and first martyr. And he preached the Bible in Egypt in Alexandria.

Rachael Kohn: So you're talking about Mark who is associated with the Gospel of Mark?

Gawdat Gabra: Yes, Mark the Evangelist. He appointed, according to the tradition, Yanos, or Yoannis, as a first successor of him, as a bishop of Alexandria, and from that time till now, the title of His Holiness, Pope Shenouda the Third, is the Patriarch of Alexandria, and Pope of the See of St Mark.

Rachael Kohn: Well we'll get to the Coptic Popes in a moment, but I'd like to go back to that early period. Isn't it true that the Egyptian Christians are also credited with originating the first monastic movement, the first monks?

Gawdat Gabra: In fact you touch the most important point in Coptic civilisation. Monasticism is the most important contribution of Christian Egypt to world civilisation.

In the 4th century, St Pachomius, he invented the communal or synobitic monasticism, to have monks together, the Pachomian rules of the 4th century, and these rules have been translated to Latin via Greek. And these rules are important in the beginning of monasticism in Europe, Benedict[ine] monasticism in Spain and Italy.

So Egypt in fact is the origin of monasticism, and this is important because when they established the first university in Europe, the system before universities were monasteries. So the Egyptians are proud in fact, especially the Copts, in having the roots of such education systems in Egypt. The monasteries of Egypt, in the Egyptian desert, in the 4th, 5th, 6th century were multi-ethnic, or multicultural, Greek, Romans, Ethiopians, Armenians, Syrians, all came to the Egyptian desert, they lived out monasticism.

Rachael Kohn: So without the Egyptian Christians, that is the Copts, we wouldn't have had the universities in Europe organised in quite that way?

Gawdat Gabra: Well I mean of course you have many other factors, but one of the factors, the ancient monastic system, came from Egypt to Europe. Also we have the vita, or the biography of St Anthony by Athanasius, the Bishop of Alexandria, and this also helped in the introduction of the ideal monk in Europe. St Athanasius had been exiled in Trier near to Germany, and you have there the Basilica of St Athanasius. So Copts preached Christianity in Europe.

Rachael Kohn: Well the Egyptian Christians, that is the Copts, were certainly a source of many novel ideas and one of them was the infamous heresy about the nature of Christ.

Gawdat Gabra: Well we know in 451 there was a schism after the Council of Chalcedon, and of course it is a very theological controversial matter, and I'm not a specialist in theology, but it is about the Christ as divine and as human. The Copts, they [maintained], no separation between the two natures of Christ, and they continued.

They belong now to five oriental churches. We have the same faith, the Orthodox Coptic church, the Syriac church, the Armenian church, the Eritrean church, and the Indian church. They call them the Oriental Orthodox, because you have also Orthodox in Europe.

Rachael Kohn: The Greek Orthodox in Europe. Well the Council of Chalcedon had accused the Egyptian Christians of heresy, didn't they? I mean they were accused of being Monophysites as it's called, that Jesus' physical nature was subsumed by his spiritual nature. Does that accurately reflect what the Coptics believe?

Gawdat Gabra: In fact nowadays, Pope Shenouda the Third rejected, as far as I know, some years ago, the accusation [of] Monophysite. He also believes in the two natures of Christ in one nature. Really, I am not a theologian, I am a Coptologist, interested in the, or specialise in the, art and history and the architecture.

Rachael Kohn: Well let's talk about that. How unique, how distinctive is Coptic religious art for example? Would we see it as very similar, say, to Greek Orthodox art, or Russian Orthodox art?

Gawdat Gabra: In fact it is a Christian art, started in the 3rd century, but it has its roots in the ancient Egyptian art - 3,000 years of art in Egypt before the Copts.

Coptic art has its roots in the ancient Egyptian art, it has been influenced by the Graeco-Roman art, by the Byzantine art, but it is individual art. Copts produced a distinctive art. From the first sight when you see Coptic art, you say, this is Coptic. And you have even similarities, for example, you have a lot of scenes of the Virgin Mary carrying the child Christ, and the apostles, and Christ in His majesty Pantocrat, you have a lot of scenes of the Old Testament, and you have sacrifice of Isaac, you have even the sacrifice of Jephta, and you have many scenes on the New Testament, the life of Christ. You have for example, the annunciation, the nativity, baptism, into Jerusalem, you have the wedding at Cana.

So Coptic art is a very rich art, it has a distinctive character, different from all the oriental Christian art or the Christian art in Europe.

Rachael Kohn: Well that brings up the Coptic Bible. How does it differ, say, from the Catholic Bible?

Gawdat Gabra: The Coptic Bible is very old, 3rd century before Christ. The Old Testament has been translated from Hebrew into Greek in Alexandria, the Septuagint. And then after Christianity, say 2, 3 centuries, they translated the whole Bible, the New Testament.

We don't have enough material in the 3rd century but we know that Mark, like St Anthony, he has known the New Testament, although he didn't read Greek, so this means that the Bible has been translated into Coptic. Because of the dry weather of Egypt, you have all the manuscripts and even the Greek [extant] texts.

Rachael Kohn: Is the Coptic language distinct, is it an amalgam of Arabic and something else?

Gawdat Gabra: The Coptic language is the same ancient Egyptian language. When you go to the church, here in Sydney, the Coptic church, you will hear the liturgy in Coptic, 5,000 years old, the language - 5,000 years old - of the Pharaohs.

Rachael Kohn: Of the Pharaohs?

Gawdat Gabra: Of the ancient Egyptians, written in Greek letters. So they invented a writing in Greek letters, adding 6 letters which the pronunciation is not in the Greek language, and 20% of the Coptic language consists of loan words from Greek terminology, the language of the time, that was the New Testament. So you have complete Bible in Coptic in different dialects.

I myself published the oldest Coptic book of the Psalms from the late 4th and the 5th century in Coptic. So I found that one of the Greek legends which is not complete, it is preserved in the Coptic translation. So Coptic language is a rich language. It is not only in the Bible, also you have poetry, you have literature, you have hagiography, you have mathematics, you have medical texts.

Rachael Kohn: Well in the West we have heard about the Christian texts from the 2nd or 3rd century in Egypt, the Nag Hammadi Texts, these are non-canonical Christian texts. Are they at all represented in the Coptic Christian tradition?

Gawdat Gabra: No, they consider them heresy. But we are very glad that nearly 2,000 pages or leaves of papyri have been found, written in Coptic, translated from Greek mostly, and they represent the most important source of Gnosticism in the whole history.

For this reason, since the discoveries in the late '40s and early '50s, many scholars have studied Coptic to be able to read this Gnosticism. I believe that this huge library was used in one of the monasteries until the Pope or the Patriarch of Russia's sent a warning about this heresy and it would seem that they buried them in a tomb, and it was a great discovery. But we are glad now of establishing Coptic Studies in Macquarie University too now.

Rachael Kohn: Well the Coptic church has many differences from say the Roman Catholic church. For one thing, the priests can be married. But tell us about the Coptic Pope. There have been many popes throughout the centuries, but does he conduct himself in the same way that the pope in Rome does?

Gawdat Gabra: Our Pope, Shenouda the Third, he's No.117, continuous chains of patriarchs from St Mark till now and the Pope ordinates bishops, so we have more than 80 bishops now.

You have also bishops in Egypt and now bishops of the immigrants, like in Sydney, Melbourne, in Los Angeles in America, and the East Coast of America. So cardinal in Egypt, well you can say [is] a bishop. And by the way, the term 'papas' was first used in history in Alexandria, and later 'Patriarch', and one used these two terms interchangeably till now. So Pope is applied at first to the Bishop of Alexandria.

Rachael Kohn: For such a fiercely independent Christian tradition, how does it fare in Egypt today, which is of course a largely Muslim country.

Gawdat Gabra: Well in fact if you know the Copts represent more than 10% to 12% of the population. It means 10-million, 12-million. Of course you have from time to time problems of minorities, all over the world you have minority problems.

The fact that you have Copts all over the world means that it is a church of life, a vivid church. The Copts are important for the Egyptian economy. We have some Coptic ministers, we have some parliament also, representatives, but of course not enough. We need more about establishing even Coptic Studies Departments, in Egypt we don't have that. We have it here in Sydney now, we have it in Germany, I have studied German Coptic, Heritage Coptic Studies.

Rachael Kohn: One last question. You were the Director of the Coptic Museum in Cairo, is that right? What would a visitor today see there?

Gawdat Gabra: Nothing, because the museum since one year is under revision. The Egyptian government, the Minister of Culture, allocated more than 30-million pounds to renovate the whole museum, so I hope in one year it will be completely re-exhibited [with] every aspect of Coptic culture.

Rachael Kohn: Dr Gawdat Gabra, is the former Director of the Coptic Museum of Cairo.

Next week on The Ark we celebrate History Week by sailing to Coffs Harbour in New South Wales to find out when the Sikhs began to "call Australia home."

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Guests

Dr Gawdat Gabra
is the former Director of the Coptic Museum in Cairo. He is a Visiting Professor of Coptology at American and Egyptian universities.