All In The Mind

This week we look at the psychology of one of the more covert "isms": ageism. What lies behind this prejudice - is it a deep-seated fear of death? A hedge against confronting our own inevitable decay? Is it about youth and its immortality complex? From the curbside to the nursing home, we explore the secret life of ageism.

Transcript

This transcript was typed from a recording of the program. The ABC cannot guarantee its complete accuracy because of the possibility of mishearing and occasional difficulty in identifying speakers.

Natasha Mitchell: Hello there, Natasha Mitchell here with All In The Mind. Good to have you on board. This week: the psychology of ageism. We keep hearing about how the populations of Western nations are getting older, and how health care systems may not be able to cope with the burden of increasing numbers of geriatric patients. But the question is: how much of this is based on research, and how much is based on deep-rooted social prejudices? The attitudes of the young towards the old are pretty complex. Many young people might point out that old people are wise and kind - but in the same breath, they'll add that they're slow drivers and shamelessly old-fashioned. Getting old isn't necessarily something people relish or desire, and this, as we know, can translate into out-and-out prejudice against so-called older people. So what's underneath all this? Today we're catching up with a social psychologist who's just edited a book on ageism, and with a professor of nursing who's studied ageism within the medical profession. David Rutledge is your guide.

MUSIC (FADE)

Penny Robinson: Thanks, I was just beginning to get with it.

John Robinson: Get with what? This music? All these lights? Now what's this all about, Penny?

Penny Robinson: It's hopeless trying to explain it to olders like you. You just don't get the vibrations like I do.

John Robinson: You're right. I don't get them the way you do. Where's Will?

Penny Robinson: Cool it, man. Will's a big boy now - and I'm a big girl, so why don't you just go back with the rest of the olders, and leave us to do our thing? You don't belong here.

John Robinson: You're right - but you do belong with us, Penny.

Penny Robinson: Oh, here it comes - that sentimental gush about parents and their children, right? Well, that's for the birds. Olders are out now - we're in.

MUSIC

Student (male): Old people, hmmm. I think they're generally slow drivers, very annoying drivers - but they're all right, they've got in place in society, I suppose.

David Rutledge: Do you ever think about getting old yourself, can you imagine yourself as an old person?

Student (male): Not at the moment, no. I'm only twenty two, so I've got a while yet.

David Rutledge: What about you?

Student (female): I don't like to think about that sort of thing - not now.

..........

Heather Gibb: My name is Heather Gibb, I currently hold the position of Professor of Nursing in Rural and Remote Health. This is a joint appointment between Charles Sturt University in NSW and three rural area health services. Prior to this I was Professor of Nursing in Aged Care, which was a joint appointment in Sydney involving University of Technology, Sydney and South Eastern Area Health Service.

David Rutledge: Well let's talk about ageism, Heather. I want to ask you first why there's ageism generally. Why do we discriminate against the older generations?

Heather Gibb: I think there are several things that come to mind. First of all, old people remind us that there is one inevitability in our lives, and that is our own death. And I think in this society, where there is prevailing ideology towards youth and materialism and active consumerism, there is no place in that for contemplating the values associated with being older or approaching our own death, our own end. Part of it also is the devaluation of the role of old people in this society. They constitute the poorest sector, they're not valued as being active market participants. We hear so often that older people are a health burden in terms of the ever-increasing amount of dollars that have to be put into health.

..........

Student (male): Old people, I think in general they're old. I would say they're experienced, they have a lot of knowledge, and their life experiences will mean that they will have a lot of wisdom.

David Rutledge: Do they all seem the same to you?

Student (male): No, they don't, because my grandparents are old, but I think they're awesome people. They're open to all the youth culture and everything.

David Rutledge: When I mention old people, when you think about old people, how would you describe them, just sort of generally?

Student (female): I don't know - caring, nice, they're always looking out for others. I love old people, I think they're really cute, they're full of stories, like you can sit there and listen to them, they've got a lifetime of stories. They've been through a lot and they like to teach you things, yeah I think.

............

David Rutledge: Well, I've been going out with a microphone among a group of very active market participants - I'm talking about young people - and I've been asking them how they feel about old people, and on the whole their reaction seems to be very positive. They say they really like older people, they really love their grandparents. That doesn't seem to fit in to the kind of dynamic of ageism that we're talking about, really.

Heather Gibb: There are implicit and explicit expressions of value, and what we're actually hearing here are the explicit values that are being expressed. If we were to go more indirectly into looking at people's values about old age, asking these people how they feel about becoming older, getting at these values indirectly, I think we'd find something rather different.

David Rutledge: How do you feel about older people? Can you discern any ageism in your own attitudes, things that you have to battle with yourself?

Heather Gibb: What comes to mind immediately is the way that we all fight the wrinkles. And I think that embodied in that, and that behaviour, is a pull away from identity with people who are carrying wrinkles as a very clear indication of where they've arrived in life.

..........

BBC woman: You can find out just about anything on the internet these days. And this site www.livingto100.com will even predict your life expectancy. All you have to do is answer a few questions. Like, how much do you drink? and whether you've got any relatives over the age of ninety. And....out pops your result! I'll let you know mine later. Fingers crossed.

DOOR OPENS

Grandpa Simpson: Ohhh, memories! If this old place could talk, it'd say....

CRASH, SCREAM (LAUGHTER)

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Todd Nelson: My name is Todd Nelson and I'm an Associate Professor of Social Psychology at California State University, Stanislaus, and I'm the editor of a book entitled Ageism: Stereotyping and Prejudice Against Older Persons.

David Rutledge: Todd, people will readily say that ageism is bad, but that it's not as bad as sexism or racism or homophobia. Which is strange, when you consider that the elderly are just as vulnerable to marginalisation and exploitation as any other social group. Why do you think that people are less concerned about ageism than they are about other -isms?

Todd Nelson: I think the simple answer to that is that ageism is one of the most socially condoned and institutionalised forms of prejudice today. Society is saying that's it's perfectly fine to make fun of older people in TV shows and movies and so on. You've got movies called "Grumpy Old Men", which is exactly a stereotype of older people. On a TV show called The Simpsons, an enormously popular show, the older father of Homer is portrayed as senile, not knowing what's going on - and then you've got the greeting card industry, in which the main message in greeting cards is "oh no, you're another year older, that's a terrible thing, how sad for you".

David Rutledge: And if I can mention it, there's another, quite outrageous example cited in your book: during the 2000 Presidential election in the US, where the vote-counting scandal centred on the State of Florida, there were political analysts lining up left, right and centre to point out that Florida was full of retirees - who, of course, could be relied on to get confused by the ballot paper and vote for the wrong candidate. And of course, nobody batted an eyelid at this sort of thing. Why do you think ageism is more socially acceptable than other forms of discrimination?

Todd Nelson: That's a good question actually, and I'm not sure there's a real simple answer. Ageism seems to hold a function. There's a particular perspective in psychology, a functional look, that just says "if you want to understand why something is happening, understand the function, the psychological, emotional function that it's having for the person, the reinforcement that the person's getting for doing that, for being prejudiced". So from that perspective, you would try to understand ageism by saying "what is it doing for the individual? Is it eliminating anxiety, like terror management theory suggests, is it stemming from some other cultural perspective?" For example: the function that older people used to have in society was one of - they were revered, they were the storytellers, they were the keepers of knowledge, they were the wise elders. But look at the increasing industrialisation of various societies - for example, the printing press. Some researchers cite that as a big factor in promoting ageism because you've taken all the power, all the status, from elders, who were sort of the libraries of their villages and their culture. And what you've done is, you say "oh, we can just mass print all this information and distribute to everybody". So that special role for the elders is taken away. And, of course, the increasing mobilisation of society in industrial societies has led some cultures to regard elders more as burdens, in that they are not contributing anything, rather than having a special role.

David Rutledge: It's all rather covert as well, isn't it. I mean, there are no hate groups that target the elderly, and there are no political parties out there suggesting that old people should be packed off to some island in the South Pacific. I wonder if that has something to do with it as well - the fact that ageism maybe inhabits the social unconscious, and for that reason it's all the more virulent?

Todd Nelson: Absolutely, absolutely. I would completely agree with that. Look at research in ageism, when they're looking at the ageist attitudes of physicians, for example. The training grounds in medical schools focus very little on geriatrics and gerontology, and newly graduating doctors come out with what some researchers call "healthism". They regard the physical problems of elderly people as not as important as younger people, as an outgrowth of just getting older, your body is just getting older, and so therefore it's bound to start failing here and there in this regard. So it's not as important, not very many resources need to be devoted to this, not very much attention needs to be devoted to this, and so on and so on, and you can see how that mushrooms. And certainly this can also carry over to these kind of ageist attitudes in terms of the problems and issues that are important to elders. With regard to mental health, some mental health professionals have prejudice against elders because they regard their problems as not really as important, they may regard elders as just needing someone to talk to, that their mental health concerns are not legitimate or important or whatever and that they're just lonely. And so that's why they're coming in to see the therapist, because they just want to have someone to talk to.

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SONG: It frightens me when you come to mind; the day you dropped in the shopping line...

David Rutledge: Do you find old people physically attractive?

Student (female): Some are, definitely. Well, Sean Connery's still one of the sexiest men. Apparently people like Michael Douglas, all that sort of stuff.

Student (male): Not really, no. You've got the old cute people, cute looking couples, that's a definite bonus. Some old people together can look really cute - but not attractive as such.

David Rutledge: What about old people having sex, is that a thought that bothers you?

Student (male): Don't go there! Come on, I mean. No, it doesn't bother me, I'm just saying, you don't want to...

David Rutledge: Can you imagine your grandparents having sex?

Student (male): It is a very scary thought. I have read a lot of research that does say that old people have a lot more sex than any other age group of people - so if that is true, that is a scary thought. I'm all for it, let them do it, because they don't have much else to do. But as soon as you think about it, you have mental pictures, and so the pictures in your head, it is scary just to think of them.....this is really tough.

Student (female): Because they're all wrinkly and that! Having sex, that is the end, you just don't go there.

Student (male): They're cute, they're not good looking.

David Rutledge: Can you imagine them having sex?

Student (male): No, I don't want to imagine them having sex.

David Rutledge: Why not?

Student (male): Because they're just too - like, you'd think that they're too - sort of.....innocent.

Student (male): Oh no, they've got to enjoy themselves! Men are still going alright at that age...

Student (female): - and women...

Student (male): The hormones are playing up. And Viagra these days, they're using it. So hey, go for it. But don't tell the kids.

SONG: ...and I'm getting older too. But I don't want to die like you, don't want to die like you...

..........

David Rutledge: One of the contributors to your book, Todd Nelson, points out that one of the salient differences between ageism and other forms of discrimination is that all the ageists will one day join the outcast group. The white supremacist will never become black, but the ageist will grow old - barring some sort of accident.

Todd Nelson: Yeah, and I think that's one of the most interesting things. It doesn't make sense for someone to have and promote negative attitudes toward a group which he or she will eventually join. Most people don't think about that, maybe they're living for the moment. But I think also there's an element of people maybe accepting the stereotypes. They buy into the stereotype that you, when you grow older, you forget things, you can't do things, you're not supposed to be physically active, you're not supposed to be sexually active. And lots of research shows that the more you accept something prescribed to you, either a stereotype or something, that it will become a self-fulfilling prophecy. There's also a lot of anxiety associated with "am I going to have this health problem", and some people believe that they inevitably will have failing health, and it will just be miserable, again from the stereotypes. So I think there's definitely some approach avoidance attitudes on most people's part.

David Rutledge: Heather Gibb, let's talk about the medical profession. A 1997 survey into ageism in the nursing profession picked up a high degree of ageism among nurses which took the form of jokes, patronising gestures, derisory language, this kind of thing. Now that was five years ago; do you think things have changed substantially since then?

Heather Gibb: I think there are a couple of factors that are in play at the moment. I'd like to just discuss some findings from a study that I conducted in the 90s, in which I wired up some nurses to a microphone, and had them carry round these microphones while they were interacting with elderly people. And we found that there were various factors that impacted on the way that nurses interact with elderly people in nursing homes. One of them was the role that they had to fulfil. We found that while registered nurses, who were the most senior professionals in the nursing home, were often quite distant and cold, often because of time pressures and they had to deal with issues directly concerned with medications and health-related issues. People who were at the lower level - enrolled nurses, nurses' assistants - had a much kindlier relationship. And part of this was to do with the fact that they were with the elderly people much more than the registered nurses. And we found that not only were enrolled nurses, who had time to be with the elderly people, often adopting quite a respectful attitude; when they were allowed the time to care for the elderly people properly, if they were allowed to take them to a bathroom and to involve washing in a normal way in a shower or a bath, there was a much more social interaction, which reflected equality in the relationship, as against nurses who were pressured to quickly wash someone in their bed or on a chair beside the bed, and who were under a lot of time pressure. That was a much more mechanically complex task, and there was very little social interaction. Like many other workers in organizations, nurses are tribal. And if there is a dominant philosophy that doesn't respect and value elderly people, coming from management, then nurses will adopt the same attitudes.

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BBC woman: Right, last question on the "living to a hundred" website. I've just got to put in my weight and my height, and.....enter. Oh - that is quite amazing. It's come up with the rather spectacular prediction that I'm going to live to ninety eight and a half. I'm not quite sure how scientific that is - but I do hope that I'm going to be fit and well enough to enjoy it.

..........

Heather Gibb: There's been a bit of work done in the 80s and 90s that touch on some of the issues about the ageing process as being part of a lifetime developing process, so the point of being old is not - as many of the stereotypes imply - that we've come to a dead end, we've hit a wall. But in fact, it is as much a developmental phase as any other time in a person's life. And the writing I'd like to bring in here is one by Helen Luke, who was writing in her eighties. She wrote in the 1980s on ageing, and she was a Jungian psychotherapist all her life. What Helen Luke says is that in old age, vulnerability enables one to start developing a whole new spiritual outlook, which is not only a very important way to deal with one's own death, but it is a way of re-introducing a wisdom back into the community of people who have not yet reached that stage, to help them to prepare for their own death, to understand it and accept it. And if I could just quote for a minute, this would probably make very clear what she was getting at. She says: "becoming older, becoming more dependent and vulnerable, involves giving up our attachment to guilt, resentment and life-denying anger. In old age we are challenged, stripped naked and alone in the world, to confront and to begin to take responsibility for the darkness and ugliness that is ours".

And what she's saying is, that it is at this very moment, in the condition of old age, that we can become conscious of our own need for other people. Once we accept that we can no longer keep our own rigid ego boundaries, that we have to give in to this dependency, that we have to allow other people into our social boundaries, we can let go of a lot of stuff - the anger, the resentment, the sorts of things that most of us operate within our world - to let go of that, and in our vulnerability, realise that we have a new experience of closeness with other people. Now you say, what does that actually do in terms of ageism? Well, my experience in a nursing home is where people are able to just stand very open to accepting where they are, they often become more cheerful, but they often draw the staff very close to them, because they invite an intimacy with the staff which I found that nurses who work in this area, by and large respond very quickly and very completely to. And in doing so, the elderly people are giving something back to the staff, and to the world that they are in contact with.

David Rutledge: Well, just finally, Heather, you've done a lot of work in rural health care. Does ageism exist in the same way in rural communities, or in indigenous communities as it does in the cities?

Heather Gibb: My experience has been that wherever possible, elderly people in aboriginal societies are kept with their own families. But I might just point out, that aboriginal elderly people could be in their forties. Because as we know, the lifespan of aboriginal people is nowhere near what it is for the white population here. However, there are a few facilities starting to be built where there are older people, maybe not as old as our elders, but people needing nursing home-style help. I should say that wherever possible, aboriginal people have aged in place - in other words, they have homecare go and support them to stay in the community, but where institutions of aged care are being set up, they're set up with a much more open-door policy. It's as though the doors are open to the community. They're not separated from the community, in the way that our social organisation and financial organisation of nursing homes seems to cut older people off from the community. In the case of indigenous aged care, it's more likely that they will retain the open door, where members of the community will just walk through, that they will have on staff community members who know the elders. So in a sense it's as much like a drop-in centre as the neighbourhood house might be. And other people and myself, talking about aged care, have always thought that would be highly desirable for any aged care establishment. So we look to that as a potential model that we could learn from.

Natasha Mitchell: Heather Gibb there, Professor of Nursing in Rural and Remote Health at Charles Sturt University in NSW. And we also heard from Todd Nelson, Associate Professor of Social Psychology at California State University and editor of a new book called Ageism: Stereotyping and Prejudice Against Older Persons. Today's show was put together by David Rutledge - thanks to Mark Don and Jenny Parsonage.

Guests

Heather Gibb
Professor of Nursing in Rural and Remote Health, Charles Sturt University, Bathurst

Todd D. Nelson
Associate Professor of Social Psychology, California State University, Stanislaus

Further Information

Todd Nelson: information
Todd Nelson's web page at California State University
http://www.csustan.edu/psych/todd/

Ageism resources
From James Madison University, Virginia: a comprehensive list of (mostly US-based) links to ageism-related websites
http://falcon.jmu.edu/~ramseyil/ageism.htm

Heather Gibb: information
Heather Gibb's web page at Charles Sturt University
http://www.csu.edu.au/research/ccrr/people_hg.htm

Publication

Title: Ageism: Stereotyping and Prejudice Against Older Persons
Author : Todd D. Nelson (ed.)
Publisher: The MIT Press (Cambridge MA, 2002) ISBN 0 262 14077 2